Armor on violent axe would actually help solve his problem with zoners. The dude should be a beast.
I’m actually fine with Haggar having difficulty against zoners. He’s the closest thing this game has to a traditional grappler, and by design, they’re supposed to have difficulty getting in, with the payoff being massive, massive damage.
It’s the second part that’s not getting fulfilled. Im fine with haggar having to work his ass off to get inside, but he needs to be rewarded once gets in by being a NIGHTMARE up close, and he doesn’t have those options right now.
Hoodlum launcher is ok, M and H could be sped up a bit, but if they were to stay the same I wouldnt complain either. Violent axe is susceptible to push block, so a slight speed boost would be welcome, but their main use is in combos so once again, I wont cry if that isn’t changed.
A boost to his foot and dash speed would be a subtler, but highly useful buff. The dash doesn’t need to be longer, just a bit faster. And he has possible the worst foot speed in the game for a character that NEEDS to get in. Maybe buff that to c. Viper’s walk speed, which is much faster, but not OMG SO FAST either.
His command grab(s) need a total overhaul, without a doubt. For a character that for all intents and purposes is designed to try and land them, capcom sure hasn’t given him much of a reason to do so. I can see capcoms logic: “oh hey! It might be hard to land, but Haggar has the most damaging command grab in the game!” but he actually has ALMOST the worst command grab in the game (that spot belongs to shuma… Poor bastard) most other command grabs in the game either can be comboed out of, leading to much more damage than the initial grab. Skrull, Sentinel and even Thor are the best examples of this, but pretty much every other command grab other than Haggars and Shumas leads to additional damage afterwards, damage that dwarfs the piledriver’s high damage easily.
Capcom needs to make a choice about Haggars piledriver:
-is this a move he should land plenty once he’s up close? Then increase the range to sentinels command grab range maximum, or give him a REALLY good Kara throw, because his current one ain’t doing the job. That way even though haggar gets less (total) damage off his command grab, he’ll land it more often, so he would still dish out around the same damage per match as any other character. It would also make him FRIGHTENING up close, and allow him to punish things he could not previously.
Or
-is this a move that should be landed rarely, maybe once or twice a round? If so, keep the range as is (although maybe give it thors range, I think his is slightly larger, but not by too much) but make the damage output WORTH that risk you took. Either make it do a FUCKTON of damage, like HYPER COMBO level damage from the H version, maybe 300K ( that sounds crazy at first, I know, but consider how often that move is landed in ANY match, causal or pro.) or make it possible to combo after, even if only into a hyper combo. Personally, I like the idea of the first because it keeps with the style of Haggar, and keeps his command grab from feeling like a mighty hurricane knock off, and guaranteed high damage is a good psychological threat.
So yeah. That’s what I think.
/rant
TLDR: fix his command grab
Haggar’s level 3 grab should do 200,000,000 damage. I am completely serious. LOOK AT IT. He almost never lands it anyway so why not?
XD
as much I would love to, I think just making it somewhere between 460-500k would be fair, MAYBE like 550k, but that’s pushing it. That way it would have the “most damaging hyper in teh gaem” spot, while not being OP. Honestly, it’s invinvibility frames and instant startup are already pretty good. Sure, you don’t land it often, but the threat of it is good enough IMO.
so I just read through some of the new posts in the General Haggar thread, and apparently Haggar’s c.H otg’s now, AND his pipe is NOT nerfed as previously thought. both are nice to hear. It sounds like he can OTG off of piledriver now, and can make that go into a longer combo with an assist outside of the corner. That sounds better
personally though (and this is simply personal bias speaking, nothing more) I wish they just gave his piledriver nutso damage. sure, it might do less than most throws into combos, but I just like the idea of Haggar doing a fuckton of damage off 1 throw. blam, big 'ol chunk of your life, GONE. But like i said, that’s just me being nit-picky.
I’m also hearing rumors that his violent ax (at least the H one) MIGHT have a hit of armor on the last hit. but take that with a bucket of salt.
I’m feeling less negative now, I think this might pan out ok for the mayor.
Piledriver with nutso damage woulda been awesome.
I agree with Haggars command throws doing stupid damage. I mean the Marvel VS series was made to exaggerate traditional street fighter moves wasnt it? Haggars heavy piledriver should do at least 35% damage so people are actually fucking scared. Level 3 should do 600,000 and should just kill anyone in any level XF.
I know right!?
like, sure the max damage off of it would be less than, say, Thor command grab into combo, but if it does insane damage right off the bat, like 300k, then there’s NO way to fuck it up. The opponent eats that damage, period.
It also keeps more with the spirit of what Haggar is and where he originated, as well as making him different. after all, if EVERYONE (cept shuma cuz apparently capcom doesn’t love shuma as much as they said) can combo after a command grab, it’s less varied and interesting. It’s basically just another way to start the standard ABC launch herpa derp combo. having different uses and outcomes of command grabs spices up things, that’s one reason why, despite how much it sucks compared to other grabs, I still like haggar’s piledriver. it just… feels nice, ya know? now if it could actually be GOOD and feel nice, then I’ll just be peachy.
Totally. In the ff games he couldn’t combo after a piledriver. But it did shit loads of damage. Then again. When he grabbed opponents he could walk around and head butt up to two times then headbutt a third time, back drop them, or piledrive the crap out of them.
But hey. Maybe we can land otg dropkick after a throw now. Or even after big spin (qcf+s in air)
oooh. That move should have armor!!!
yeah, at the end of the day, OTG c.H is a really nice buff, but i’d be a complete liar if I said I didn’t want Capcom to buff his grab another way.
As for Big Spin, I’m kinda stingy when it comes to armor personally. If a move gets to have armor, it really needs to make sense having it, in every way. Hulk, Nemesis, and Sentinel’s moves make sense because… fucking look at them. just fucking look at them. but for a little toss that Haggar has, it doesn’t seem appropriate. could it be useful? sure, perhaps. but a part of me would feel dirty every time I used it. It wouldn’t make it a good approach anyway, alot of assists do multiple hits, and Big Spin is pretty slow, and lacks range. It would be a waste of perfectly good armor.
What I wouldn’t mind would be a ground version of Big Spin. why you ask? So I could toss the opponent straight to the corner (or at least full screen towards one). Haggar’s more dangerous when the opponent can’t run as easy. But, I’m basically asking for a whole new move, so I’m not gonna hold my breath.
fucking balancing, how does it work? (srsly, how does it work)
Seeing all these comments about what Violent Axe can/should do is kind of weird to me. Macarratti is the most right so far (Haggar should not be a Wesker or a Dante who just herp derps in) but still not quite there in my opinion. It should be hard for Haggar to get in. But I think he kind of has TOO hard of a time getting in. The problem with the whole zoning thing is that if the character can basically never get in, then that’s bad design because the gameplay is one-dimensional cuz the zoner just mindlessly zones all day and whatever. Haggar needs like, one more tool for getting in, and it probably sucks to hear but it shouldn’t be like, full-screen and easy to use. It should probably be something like partial projectile invincibility on Violent Axe L, or something. You’d have to time it properly, and it’s the one that moves you the least distance. So now you have something you can do, but you’re still at a disadvantage (since it’s the smallest-moving version you’ll need to do this more than once) in the situation of “Haggar vs. Zoners.” Especially with buffs to what he can do on the inside, this should be pretty justified (he could still use somemore with regards to what he can do once he’s in). Hell, maybe you can have Violent Axe M have the projectile invincibility too, but make the timing even harder than L (justified by the larger distance it moves), and also make the recovery bigger (this would make whiff punishing it if the zoner instead didn’t throw a fireball easier; see, now they have a reason to not just spam the projectiles at you 24/7! Gameplay! But changing recovery as opposed to blockstun makes it so it’ll still be possible to help him stay safe if you wanna X-factor or use an assist or DHC or some crap like that).
Edit: Also I didn’t talk about buffs for what Haggar can do once he’s in because I think you guys have done a pretty good job of that. I mean, not literally ever suggestion is perfect but there’s a good number of solid ideas being talked about here.
Yeah I agree. It SHOULD be hard for a character like Haggar to get in. You only have to look at the history of grapplers for the reasons behind that (Gief,Hugo,Hawk etc).
However grapplers are designed so that once they get in, they kill you and its really tough to escape. However even if Haggar gets in in vanilla mvc3, he does average damage, has little mixup and his combos ending in body splash leave you in bad position to pressure afterwards.His command grabs are an insult to the grappler gods.Thats why I think he is only viable in vanilla if you have a character that can DHC glitch with him, so that almost any hit=dead character.
Thats why I think he should have more moves to help him get in.Like you suggested, I think subtle changes will be more likely and I’d be happy with them.
I’m not playing this guy in ultimate anyway unless they make drastic improvements to his point game.I dont use Haggar just for the assist, but the assist will be a waste of a slot almost in Ultimate so that strategy wont even be viable.
Yeah, I’m hearing that his assist was actually nerfed WORSE than previously thought. Now haggar loses damage off of it for no good reason. Lovely capcom.
On a more theory fighter note, I actually think that H violent ax should have projectile inv.
Despite moving far, this move is hardly a full screen punish due to it’s slow speed, and the ground bounce at the end limits the combo available at the end. Making it projectile invulnerable until, say, the overhead swing at the end, seems fair (meaning, that last swing WON’T be projecte invulnerable).
L and even M axe just don’t have the trVel distance that haggar would need for them to be viable approaches, invulnerable or not, and H ax isn’t gonna turn him into a rushdown god anytime soon, so yeah.
You know what I want? I want the Violent ax part of his abortion punch to travel MUCH farther on whiff, and have projectile invulnerability. Give him a midranged hyper punish that actually does some damage, since it leadsmto an arial combo. His best ranged hyper is body splash, and that’s just laughable. Once again, it’s not gonna make him magneto or anything, but it will make him less of a gimp at fullscreen.
H violent axe/ with projectile invul. would be so awesome. I love running Haggar on point but he definitely has his shortcomings against most of the cast. Like many of you I hope for some decent changes, not to make him ridiculous but just so he can hang better with the competition.
Did they nerf his lariat on point in Ultimate? That would suck large.
They had better not
As far as we’ve seen it’s been just a nerf on the assist version. But it still looks like a good Anti Air.
Hopefully they did something to Violent Axe assist to give it some sort of use.
H Hoodlum Launcher should be like M Hoodlum Launcher; full-screen, with a bit of delay because it has armor a la Zangief’s power bomb from vs. games. Make Hoodlum Launcher a grab like in Final Fight with a follow-up; L for classic Haggar Suplex, M to launch, H for the Piledriver and S to drop them in front of you. (mind games?) Skyhigh backdrop should be like Zangief’s air grab; L for short distance, M for mid-screen and H as the current H Hoodlum launcher. Skyhigh Backdrop as his 3rd assist. Pipe should do chip damage. Make Giant Swing his signature grab on the ground and in the air. AND Give him a “Forward Flying Press” Super like he had in “Mighty Final Fight” That would be fun.
Personally, I think changes like those would be too drastic. It almost gives him a whole new moveset.
Meh.
The only thing Haggar needs is the ability to follow up wild swing by piledriving a shark onto the opponent.
I wish jumping pipe acted like an armor breaker vs Sent and Hulk.
Give him a new super. Lvl1, hyper armor suit. Activating the super gives him a suit made out of oil drums from the final fight series. Helmet and all. We can call him Hagz, or Hagneto. Totally negates a projectiles impact. He walks, jumps, dashes through them like they aren’t even there. He’s still damaged by them, but they are negated heavily by the suit. Almost null and void. Physical attacks can not start combos on Haggar either. But they do 100% damage to Haggar, on each hit. (Since his hyper armor prevents him from being put in combos…every hit does 100% since they are “single” hits outside of a combo) I don’t see a problem with that since your opponent hitting you, means they are open. Hit jab, start a combo. lol Haggar can build no meter while in this mode. This is not a permanent change. It’s a limited time super. So once Haggar goes back to normal, he can build meter again. I think Haggars damage output, should be reduced to 70% while in this form. To make up for the fact that he has hyper armor on EVERY SINGLE ONE OF HIS ATTACKS, every single frame. Whiff a command throw? They still can’t combo you. So he needs to have reduced damage output to balance it.
It should last only a short period. But it’s a great way for Haggar to be scary on point or alone, even if its only for a short period. I would spend meter for that.
Make it happen Capcom.
–Jive