Good or not, moves that provide mobility deserve mention, and Dive Kick does have good priority looking at its hitbox. It’s 4 frames slower than Akuma’s Dive Kick and 3 slower than X-23 Talon Dive, both really useful. And the universal ground bounce it gives is really nice. Not everyone’s Divekick is Wolverines, but it has use. I also didn’t mention Hell’s Elevator(A crossup and safety cancel tool), and thank you for the ground dash mention. And I wasn’t confused about the argument, only that comparing left/right and high/low is not exactly valid comparison, given how much more powerful left/right is. Left/Right is for teleporters, such as Zero, Vergil, etc, while High/Low is a lockdown and or pressure exclusive mixup. Also not mentioned is Ground Bon Voyage. Yes, it’s terribly unsafe, but that’s what assists are for. Paired with a beam with a good angle, it gives a left/right on jump and up/down on block, and covers a huge amount of distance quickly. So again, hard to use but worthy of mention. Also not mentioned previously is his slide. Again, not exactly Hawkeye(even if it is a little faster), but it can be canceled safely and can be dash canceled.
Final note: Calling someone too stupid is never a good idea in a debate. Even if they miss the point entirely, as you believe MysticRay has, insulting them directly makes you look angry and crass. Which detracts from what you are saying. It’s especially important with the type of statements you are making. While few would dispute the points you have brought up about Zero being stronger, any statement against something is likely to be viewed as an attack by someone who defends that something, in this case being Firebrand. Infact, my own statements are just as likely to make you angry since I am trying to tell you how to conduct your business. But if you start yelling at me, I would accept your anger and work with it instead of lashing back at you. I’m not telling you out of disrespect, just the opposite in fact. You make your arguments and present them well. But this direct and dirty insulting stuff…it just detracts from the power of your statements.
I understand what you’re saying. But all this talk about Zero and how Firebrand seems vastly inferior to him makes it seem like you would rather main Zero than Firebrand. I understand that Firebrand is worse than Zero but Firebrand is a very strong character who doesn’t need to rely on one gimmick in order to be successful. Yes, the unblockable should be used as much as possible but Firebrand won’t crumble without it.
On the dive kick argument, Firebrand’s dive kick is +10 on block with Flight recovery. You can create frame trap setups all the day with that move. It’s far from bad.
Hell’s Elevator is an inferior version of Zero’s command dashes, since Zero can solo cross-up from them and use them to open people up via assist like Firebrand can. Firebrand’s slide is pretty awful, I think he’s generally better off just dashing and using s.L. It’s no She-Hulk or Hawkeye slide, that’s for sure. The range on it is comparable to Zero’s f.H, except Zero’s f.H is better in every way aside from the vertical hurtbox on him during the move. I don’t entirely agree that high/low mix-ups are inferior to left/right mix-ups. There are certain weakness in the latter that do not exist in the former. However, for the purposes of our discussion, all that matters is that Firebrand needs assists to have anything resembling what Zero has alone.
The difference between Akuma’s Dive Kick and X-23’s Talon Dive, and Firebrand’s Dive Kick, is that the other two, IIRC, can cancel their dive kicks into something else, and they land afterwards. I think many of us were excited about having a Dive Kick that keeps you in the air for more pressure, but it turned out to be a crappy feature, and it would be much better if Firebrand landed with +10 frame advantage for a j.H option select or c.L follow-up to open people up with. There’s no value at all in him being in the air after the Dive Kick. That’s not to say that it’s pure garbage through and through, just that it’s arguably the worst Dive Kick in the game. Ironically, X-23 can better aim her Talon Dive than Firebrand can aim his Dive Kick! People generally don’t use Akuma’s Dive Kick, since he has so many other safer approaches with better hitboxes on them. Firebrand’s Dive Kick might seem to be just as good as Akuma’s simply because it’s what Firebrand has, while Akuma has so much more to offer.
I’m fine with insulting and disregarding people who can’t even take the time to understand a post before responding to it. If someone actually disregards my arguments because of the insults, they are likely deserving of some as well! Disregard those inadequate for conversation: a virtue.
As an Akuma player, I can assure you that Akuma does infact use his dive kick a lot, and no, he cannot cancel it in anyway. It’s his fastest and generally safest inertia move because Flip moves have startup, doesn’t leave you negative like teleport does, and Tatsu doesn’t exactly move you so while it’s a great jump in, it’s not a dive kick. You don’t see it much, frankly, because you don’t see Akuma in a position to use it. Dive kicks are a bad move for Anchor characters because of X-Factor Guard cancels, but for point Akuma, it’s rather useful, since Tatsu doesn’t have a good vertical hitbox and Flip Dive Kick is essentially the same thing but with a better hitbox and a longer startup. It’s not better than his Fireball game, but is used in tangent instead. X-23, likewise, cannot cancel out of it, it only looks like it can because the recovery is low. It can be canceled into with the likes of Crescent Scythe, but meh. As far as I know, command dives usually can’t cancel into something, Trish and I think Phoenix being the exceptions. Doom, Dante, etc, or Joe and Ammy with Special Dive Kicks can all do cancels, so yeah.
Hell’s elevator can be inferior aggressively, but it is much better as a runaway move, which Zero doesn’t really have. Zero has inertia stopping and approach with projectiles, but he can’t actually run away like Firebrand can. Firebrand can stick on the side of the wall, and spam Hell’s Dive H for running. For example, say you are pressuring a character and he X-Factors. You cancel into Hell’s Elevator H and then multi-use Dive H and suddenly you’re on the opposite side of the screen. I’m not sure, but can Firebrand plink dash? That’d be useful for running too. Firebrand is a much more reckless mobility person, with things like ground Bon Voyage, DP moves and Hell’s elevator, but he can do it faster and with greater range than Zero, who trades off this speed and recklessness with safety and only forward going moves. And that’s probably the biggest reason why Firebrand is better in mobility, he can run away far better than Zero can. It’s not MODOK levels, but the ability to chain 3 Dives together can cover a lot of distance quickly and safely. Even all the moves that leave him in flight tend to let him Dive. Heck, Firebrand can even duck and weave using the likes of DP+L and things like come in with Dive M, attack, then cancel into Dive H.
I was actually just messing around with Firebrand’s plink dash yesterday. Forward is pretty good; a little slower than his wavedash but with an attack in front of it. Backwards plink is god-awful, though. He hardly moves anywhere at all, so it’s not useful as a runaway tool.
Firebrand can also cancel his, he just doesn’t have anything good to cancel it into, unfortunately. I don’t need to be informed about how often Akuma uses his moves. I watch every major, and it’s clear that the move hardly ever gets used, even when X-Factor is blown by both parties. It might be more fair to say that his dive kick isn’t so great because he has so many other, better options.
Firebrand needs to run away. Zero just strategically repositions for another buster shot.
I’m not big on comparing mobility in a vacuum like this. For example, you use Ground Bon Voyage as an example of mobility, but Zero can just buster shot into a command dash and get the same effect while it’s much safer. So, Firebrand might move around a bit more, but he needs to attack with his body. Also, if Firebrand crosses an opponent up, the only way to hit an opponent is with Bon Voyage (he should really autocorrect after command dashes IMO). Zero’s buster autocorrects into full combos. In my opinion, a big part of valuing the mobility of a character is how good the character’s mobility options at putting the character where you want them to be for a good offense. I think Zero’s mobility options, when considered within the context of the character, are superior. Possibly, you won’t agree with me on my evaluation standards, and we’ll have to set this aside.
I watch those same majors. Akuma’s main game is his fireball one, so most people stick with that (as they should), which often leaves them in a position where a Dive Kick angled as steep as it is does not really provide any benefit, other than occasionally getting them out of the air. However, this is anchor Akuma, and he’s popular for a reason. There’s a significant movement in the Akuma forums to bring him on point, or at least seated second, with Akuma having LARGE amounts of mixups(One move lets me simultaneously go left, right, high and low) if he has some time to set them up. So while Fireball Akuma has little use of it, I find a lot of use in my aggro Akuma. It’s also a great way to get out of the sky, kind of like a psuedo Wesker Super Jump gun teleport thing.
Also, I agree to drop the mobility thing as well, but lemme finish with these two things.First: Firebrand IS capable of shooting a Fireball via wall cling and using his mobility to provide his own coverfire if needed. Wall Cling Fireballs are some of Firebrand’s better tactics for a good reason, and he can cancel his Fireballs into a power-up super and follow them if Wall cling is too slow. Second: You say that Firebrand needs to run away. He has the mobility to do that and very well. Doesn’t that count for something?
After alot of failed teams I’ve finally come to the conclusion that Firebrand/Dormammu/Ammy is the best firebrand team imo. Ammy’s assist provides firebrand with viper-like entry mixups. Dormammu’s double DHC ball tricks solve firebrands damage issue, and Dormammu/Ammy is better than Dormammu/Skrull.
Thoughts?
I would love to see that happen, because Akuma really is a strong non-anchor character. I tried using him on point for a while, but it just wasn’t cutting it on my team. That’s the real problem in this game, though. There aren’t a lack of awesome characters and awesome team combinations, there’s a lack of awesome players using them, haha.
You’re right, it does count for something that Firebrand can run away well. But when I think about this as a Firebrand vs. Zero conversation, I think this: When will Firebrand want to run? Well, usually when someone is in XF3. So Firebrand runs. What is Zero doing? Zero does what he always does, he chills in the air and fires buster shots, going for combos, because he’s so safe in his offense. So while Firebrand has this as a virtue, I have trouble thinking of a situation where it’s noteworthy as a virtue in comparison to Zero.
The problem with the wall cling fireballs is that Firebrand is prone until he lands when he does them. If Firebrand became popular, I think people would largely stop using them because so many characters have nasty hypers to catch him with on the way down. Not enough people use Firebrand or fight against him to really counter some of the stuff he does. It also doesn’t help that the fireball has a small-ish hitbox, and it’s hard to wall cling at the exact angle you need to hit someone. I wish Luminous Body upgraded his fireball…or that Capcom would have modeled this guy off of Demon’s Crest.
Small rant: when we knew we were getting Firebrand, I really wanted him to have a “level up” system where you keep getting more crests, and those furthered your abilities. 1 bar = one permanent power up, and if you burn 5 bars on him throughout the match, he’s a monster. Sort of like a progressive Dark Phoenix. I have all the fantasy boosts typed up, but I won’t list them here. I really think Capcom did a sloppy job on Firebrand, and there should have been more to this character. Hell, even what they have given him largely sucks. All of the Demon Missile moves are pretty crappy aside from the unblockable, he has to actually go through the startup frames for his Flight when using Hell’s Elevator, he has a huge number of startup frames for his Flight (WHY?! The fucker has wings Capcom!), etc. Since we’ll never get a remake that makes him the character he should be, I’d love to see Capcom de-crapify his specials so he has more interesting options than spamming Bon Voyage all day.
I do not agree. I think this team has big problems after Firebrand dies. Cold Star is not a good primary assist for Dormammu, and I think Zak Bennet’s play shows this. It’s a wicked good team while Firebrand is alive, though. So, if you are cool with putting all your eggs in one basket, I think it’s not a bad team. I do think that Firebrand does really well with some kind of horizontal assist coverage, and it’s a shame to make him get in alone. If you ever fight something like Hawkeye/Strider, you’ll feel the pains of your imbalanced team.
Wings vs Jets, Rockets, Demonic Energy, The Wind, Magnetism, Galactic Energy, and Mystic Energy. Wings kinda seems like crap comparatively. Besides, unless your name is Sentinel, you either use Flight to spam dashes or not at all, or on occasion to extend keepaway prowess like Dorm, Doom, or MODOK. No dashes to spam, no way to really abuse flight.
Sure, that other stuff is really good, but it still doesn’t make sense for Firebrand to “start” flying and for it to take him so long. It’s also maddening that he can’t fly upwards.
Besides, this game isn’t really based on comparative logic. Logic within the character usually holds, but not between characters. In terms of fighting ability, it’s a bit weird that a character so aerially based is so crappy in the air mobility department.
It would be neat if, for example, his Hell’s Elevator inputs all had two versions. One if you tap the input, another if you held the input. Holding the input makes him go up to superjump height, adding an element of surprise to his move (and making them useful outside of mix-ups…). Let the player decide if we want to auto-fly, etc. There’s just a lot of neat and easy stuff that can be done with the character that would spiff him up.
Firebrand/Skrull/Sentinel.
You get the 300% team kill if you touch anyone with Firebrand, and Sentinel is without a doubt Skrull’s best assist. Sentinel Force is also fantastic for getting Firebrand in and creating mix-ups. You have two very competent anchors as well.
This is also a very good team. Then again, [anything]/Doom/Ammy is, haha.
Firebrand/Dormammu/Sentinel is okay. You’re going to have to utilize the Stalking Flare unblockable to kill problem characters. I don’t think it’s a great team, but it’s not a bad one. Dark Hole unblockables only work with a handful of characters on snap-in or incoming, but most people still fall for it because they’ve never dealt with it before.
Dormammu/Sentinel, IMO, is just a so-so combination. Dormammu has trouble protecting Sentinel to keep Sentinel Force out there, and he’s not like Magneto where he can tridash all over the place for mix-ups during the pin. You pretty much get one predictable mix-up with it. My launch team was Dormammu/Doom/Sentinel, and I’ve been happier without Dormammu/Sentinel. That’s not to say you can’t win games for it, just that I don’t think it’s great.
You definitely want to use Demon Missile for the Firebrand/Dormammu DHC combo Bennett does. Firebrand’s OTG assist doesn’t pick up in time outside of corners unless he’s in Luminous Body, and even then it’s tight. Plus, it’s better to keep Firebrand in non-Luminous Body form when he’s on the sideline so you can do Chaotic Flame -> Luminous Body or Stalking Flare -> Luminous Body, both of which are very potent.
I’m not just saying this because it is my main team but I think that Firebrand/Dormammu/Akuma is the best Firebrand/Dormammu team.
A lot of the problems with other teams using the Firebrand/Dormammu/X shell is that they often provide a good assist for one or the other character but tend to fall apart once Firebrand dies. Amaterasu and Sentinel are two examples of those teams. Akuma provides a phenomenal assist to both characters. Firebrand uses it for rushdown and to control the ground while Dormammu can use it to rushdown or zone and keep people off of him so he can continue to zone. Dorm/Akuma have really good DHC compatibility as well (beam into beam) and are very good at getting happy birthdays. Both abuse XF2 and 3 very well and generate a lot of their own meter.
A good bonus with this team is that in the corner (After a Bon Voyage, basically), this team has a power THC. For three bars, it does around 500k, which allows Firebrand to kill problem characters without needing to DHC into Dormammu (Such as when Dormammu is hurt or when killing a character who the DHC doesn’t work on) Even with just FB/Akuma, the THC is still pretty good for 2 bars (around 330k. Around 500k in XF2).
The main problems with this team are just the inherent problems of the Firebrand/Dormammu shell, in that they are meter heavy. The main characters that seem to give it problems are Zero (Only with Jam Session), Wesker (With Lariat or Vajra), Vergil, Strider, Hulk, and Haggar.
Yeah, I can vouch for Akuma assist. My own team is consistent of Firebrand(Who cares), Doom(Missiles), Akuma(Duh). There’s some really good synergy with a Doom TAC combo. I can come out about meter neutral and do between 950-1mil in damage if done right. There’s also great combo potential in Doom. Any Bon Voyage can yield a Doom LVL3 which greatly helps damage, and on top of that any Bon Voyage not instantly put in the corner yields a Dr Doom corner loop. But as you might be able to tell, the sacrifice is unblockables. I don’t really focus on unblockables that much, instead relying on the Dive Kick based one, though that’s not to say I’m not still on the hunt for a good unblockable setup.
Still gonna suggest Firebrand/Sent/Akuma as an alternative to the status quo teams.
As I’ve said before Tatsu is one of the best assists for firebrand because of the projectile destroying ability and the high priority. Akuma is a strong anchor that can hold himself if push comes to shove. Sentinel’s Drones give Firebrand a nasty okizeme and snap-in game that is sooooooooooooo dirty.
But lets talk about the elephant in the room, Sentinel.
Sentinel has some of the best normals in the entire game. Only problem is they’re slow and he needs an assist to land an opening hit for him. Tatsu works extremely well for Firebrand and is arguably Sentinel’s best partner assist. Tatsu lockdown allows for Sentinel to abuse his armored moves and poke from outside of grab range. Sentinel basically becomes Nightmare-esque when he can stand a dash-length away and continually whack people with high advantage normals. Just like fighting against Nightmare, you are at an extreme disadvantage when trying to move forward against Sentinel when he is in his sweet spot. I think the problem around here is that we’ve seen so many failed anchor sentinels that we’ve forgotten that Sentinel was designed to be played on point with a strong assist.
Granted, Sentinel is not as strong as vergil on point but he can be very effective nonetheless with proper reads. Undoubtedly Sentinel has the raw damage output to easily crush characters that were weakened by firebrand.