Shouta-
Given that a simple backdash renders any incoming melee attack mostly worthless, and the fact that everybody is constantly on the move, it’s kind of hard to justify statements like “it’s easier to land melee combos” when BRx3 is just a natural extension from moving around the map.
Don’t bring that GameFAQs “everybody is mostly the same/popular suits are popular just because they’re popular” argument to SRK. For one thing, it’s mostly wrong- the only reason it sounds right is because there are so many BR suits in the game that play similarly, but there are clear differences that make some better than others. Does that mean you can’t win with your favorite suit? No, but it does mean your favorite suit isn’t necessarily the best. Turn A clearly wasn’t the most popular series, yet there are plenty of Turn A players. Why? Because Turn A is hella broke and ignores basic game mechanics.
Also Wing Zero and DS are like the second best suits in their respective cost tiers, and Heavyarms is pretty good as well. Wing’s popularity and “omg big combos are so cool” explain why Epyon gets play, but it’s not like there are a ton of Tallgeese players… which is probably mostly because Tallgeese isn’t very good.
Look at the list of suits that made top 8 (or top 16 if you want to go that far back) for Premium Dogfights. You can’t argue that nobody “dominates that much” after seeing like every 2000 in the top 8 being either Gundam or Deathscythe.
That’s the absolute worst logic I have ever heard in my life. You sound like a GameFAQs Smash Bros player “oh, there aren’t any tiers in our magical game! everybody is equal!”. We have a name for that, and it didn’t work during the 1900s either.
Considering that most players that would melee would do it so you couldn’t backdash out of it, I think the “easier to land” argument holds pretty good water. Most players will save the melee for the exact last second or until you’ve made a mistake to land it, either by screwing up your dashing or missing your counter shot. It’s why you do still see melee at all.
BRx3 is a natural extension of moving of the map, true but to even land a BRx3, you’d need to land a lucky shot in mid-movement, which is tough itself except in cross-fire situations or being able to catch an opponent as they run out of boost, which is difficult as well. It’s the entire reason why a lot of tournament GVGN games take ages, that and everyone plays safe until someone messes up.
The argument isn’t wrong, so I will gladly bring it to SRK.
Mind you, I didn’t say there weren’t differences between units but those differences don’t make the top units so much stronger that it’s already a losing battle from the start. This isn’t a Sagat in CVS2 situation at all. Pretty much all of the units in the hands of someone that’s skilled will able to beat the others, well except Guntank but that’s fucking Guntank.
Tallgeese isn’t played because it’s a difficult suit to handle. Dash mechanics are different for it so you can’t play the unit like you would a standard one. Most avoid it for that reason. It’s a damn good suit though in the right hands and I’ve seen some wickedly good ones.
Both Gundam and DS are really effective in their roles as part of a team. DS was explained earlier.
As for the RX-78, it’s actually a really damn good keep away unit. Most Gundam players aren’t highly offensive, usually staying at mid, getting in opportunity shots and is excellent at punishing folks that chase it. As an offensive unit, it actually lacks comparatively. Two primary guns, the Bazooka and BR for regular fighting and a CSa (slow charge, slow release, but stupidly fast shot) that’s best used to punish bad NDing. There are any number of units in the 2000 rank that are more powerful than Gundam in an offensive role but because everyone plays safely in a tournament, Gundam is a better choice.
I mean really, when you consider that the PD09 winning team had Ground Gundam (when most consider Duel, Aegis, and Vigna the best of the 1000) on it, I’m pretty sure the tiers aren’t as set as most would think.
I just love how folks thinks that a tier list has to mean everything.
Look, a tier list exists for the game but it doesn’t define what’s only viable. The unit differences are there but they aren’t so great that it makes other suits pale in comparison. All of the top suits are strong but they don’t require another top-tier suit to beat at all, any of the suits can beat them (except Guntank). GVGN is a totally different type of game with very different mechanics and advantages don’t become limitations for other characters fighting against it.
I wish more folks from back home had a chance to play the game here just to see how the scene is.
IIRC the PD09 finals had the Turn A/Ground type getting rocked by Qubeley… and who are these “most considering” those 1000s to be the best 1000s? GameFAQs again? The Japanese lists I’ve seen generally rate Char’s Zaku II, Zaku Kai, Gouf Custom, and Gundam Ground type over all of those suits you listed.
You’ve just described why Gundam is far and away the best 2000 in the game. Nobody cares about going on the offensive with Gundam because, by flying around and shooting from far away, Gundam is a) better at that than most suits thanks to CSa/BR/BZ/JV meaning he is never out of ammo, and b) that frees up his 3000 teammate to be more aggressive and die first if need be, so he gets a full ~700HP to work with (whereas Gundam’s HP is more or less irrelevant for most of the fight). Then consider that tournament play is more about more about solid, safe, defensive play than “offense” and it’s clear why Gundam is the best 2000; it’s the best at doing what a 2000 should be doing. Plus, catching landings with CSa is 180 damage instantly :V
As I said before, that doesn’t mean other suits aren’t viable. Does that mean there’s no reason for playing Impulse/Akatsuki/Exia/Master/etc. because Gundam/DS make them all obsolete? No, but your reasons are going to be more along the lines of “well I think this suit is cooler” or “I liked this show more,” which is totally fine but not really anything related to a tier list. I get wins with bad suits like Epyon and the Qubeley Mk.II’s and such, anything is possible with good movement/mindgames/execution/etc., but when it’s a tournament and it’s business time, I play Gundam. That’s all the tier list really means; not who can win, but who is most likely to win based on the tools they have; in Gundam games specifically, it also means who adds the most to a 2v2 team. Which is why the likes of Duel/Aegis/Vigna aren’t considered quite as good as Char Zaku/Zaku Kai/Ground type/Gouf Custom; they might be marginally better 1v1 suits but they don’t offer as much in a 2v2 situation.
Nobody has once said that low tier suits aren’t viable or anything. Higher tier suits are just better is all.
I’ve seen a few Japanese lists like the ones I mentioned, don’t have the links anymore though.
I can see that list you mentioned as well but more so as a component of a team. Ground is pretty terrible alone but pretty good as a cover unit, ditto for Zaku Kai. Gouf Custom and Char’s Zaku aren’t bad alone but better as a team as well. Pretty sure the list above that was posted was individual units.
That’s the anomaly though. For the exact same reasons, a unit like Zeta Gundam is just as good. Reloadable BR that’s rapid fire, fast reloading Arm Grenade/Missiles and Hyper Mega Launcher. In fact, Zeta is the better fire support unit in the same role as Gundam for an offensive partner but Gundam is still the more popular unit. The one major advantage for Gundam is that the melee is a little more reliable (shorter animation, front-focused, and has ok priority) but in that role, it largely doesn’t matter.
My big point is that there really isn’t any particular reason why certain suits are more preferred, for a number of different cases. There are certainly cases where one suit is the one you want (need an aggressive partner that can get in without killing themselves? DS is your man) but when it comes down to it, you can do a lot of of the very same things using other units that have the same or similar tools.
I’m just saying that the higher tier suits aren’t that much better, not that they aren’t better at all.
Rapid fire BRs aren’t that great. Zeta’s does 60 per shot, damage scaling means rapid fire BRx3 does like 126 or something at best. BRx2 > AC does 150 (BRx2-AC probably does less if Zeta follows the trend of derived/chained shots doing less damage). To put that into perspective, standard BRx2 does 136 (with pressure options afterwards), BRx3 does 168.
Hyper Mega Launcher does 120 damage by itself, incidentally. Gundam’s CSa is 180. Zeta’s missiles do like 84 damage each (124 if both hit), Gundam bazooka does 108.
This is actually a fairly significant difference in firepower. It takes Gundam two BRx3 combos to kill a 1000, whereas Zeta takes three, to give an example. For the other important thresholds; Zeta needs two full BRx3 to hit the 250 damage threshold (killing overcost Turn A/Epyon/God in a 3000/2000 team, need less to kill other 3000s), whereas Gundam just needs BRx3, BRx2 or one BZ hit or one CSa or one javelin… 280 (average overcost 2000 in a 2000/3000 team), Zeta takes needs BRx3, BRx3, misc. hit whereas Gundam just needs BRx3, whatever BR combo.
Zeta can make up the difference a bit with BRx2 > AC, not much but sometimes it’s enough to affect combos-required to reach the important damage thresholds. Mostly it’s enough to let Zeta kill an overcost 2000 in 2 combos rather than 3 but I don’t think it helps terribly much with the other important points. Too lazy to crunch numbers for all of Gundam’s equivalent shooting chains for combos-required checks and such.
So you wanna say that Zeta is BETTER at playing a support fire role with a weaker BR whose main selling point is rapid fire (with weaker tracking so it’s just a ease-of-use landing punisher in that sense) and manual reload, a lower damage 1-shot landing punisher, a worse mid-long range assist, and lower damage missile/BZ type moves?
The only things Zeta has going for it over Gundam as a support suit are ease of use (not by much, Gundam is pretty simple to play) and maybe tracking on the missile/grenade things, which again isn’t much. I guess Zeta also doesn’t have to juggle between as many weapons to manage ammo since it has braindead ammo management (manual reload BR, super fast recharge on other weapons) but it’s not like it’s particularly hard for Gundam to keep his ammo where it needs to be.
Given the same situations, Zeta and Gundam have approximately the same options, but Gundam does more damage. Gundam has a better long-range support game via CSa.
Also for someone who kept bringing up “sometimes you just can’t get out of a melee suit’s range,” you sure are ignoring Gundam’s superior melee for a gtfo option (as well as more assist calls); Gundam has more ways to get itself out of trouble, which takes pressure of his teammate since there’s less babysitting involved.
I get that you’re trying to say that other suits are just as good as Gundam in the support role, but Zeta clearly isn’t it. And really, if you look at the numbers and the tools, there really isn’t any 2000 that does the job as well. Akatsuki does a different job better (DRAGOON pressure + shield support) but isn’t as good for fire support, F91 has a significant health handicap and some ammo management issues, etc.
Zeta has worse damage but that’s the tradeoff for its advantages. Zeta has better cut and bait ability than Gundam does.
The rapid fire BR and ability to cancel into either the HML or Arm missiles allows Zeta to cut units off, either approaching your partner (easier than most units) or as they melee them (well, more or less the same as others but higher chance of hitting should the melee be fairly forward moving)
Being able to put out more fire on the field for less Boost allows Zeta to force opponents to use up boost to land a free hit, typically using the BR and Arm missiles (in single NDs) to force opponents to evade. When they run out out of Boost, you should be able to ND and HML them easily for a free hit. So while Zeta may not be able to do the damage Gundam does, it does an easier time landing hits.
CSa vs HML, eh? CSa for Gundam takes awhile to charge and it has a pretty long start up though it fires fast and does great damage. Zeta’s HML has doesn’t require charging (and it reloads faster), comes out faster, but does less damage and is slower comparatively. So it’s a matter of ease of use vs power. I’d personally go with the HML myself, easier to land because it’s mapped to AC and the start up is quicker.
I will give you that. Gundam’s more reliable melee does help with the gtfo option. Zeta does have a melee attack to push back folks pretty far (I think it’s 4/6BBB) but being unreliable does hurt it as an option. Gundam does have more assist calls too but the Methuss stays on the field for Zeta though. Granted, Zeta’s Assist is used in a different manner than Gundam’s.
Gundam is definitely the better unit for handling yourself where as I consider Zeta the better unit to support your partner. Of course, handling yourself IS supporting your partner but I mean in a more direct way. Zeta just puts out on the more field allowing for more opportunities. I did say I thought Zeta was a better unit for support fire role, not that it was better on the whole.
Gundam is definitely hard to beat when it comes to being able to fill multiple roles for sure though and that’s why it deserves to be thought of highly but I do think other units provide better advantages depending on the specific things you want to do.
Would be cool to play with ya or against ya sometime, Crimson.
