So giving sol the ability to extend pressure and mixup through a gunflame frc is “dumb shit”? Lol
I just find it funny that you target gunflame frc so much like it’s this broke ass move, there are so many ways of dealing with it.
When it comes to GG…you are a scrub, no one with enough knowledge of the game would suggest such a ridiculous change.
An FRC does one or more of the following, in general:
[LIST]
[]Allows for extended pressure
[]Allows for new combo possibilities
[]Allows for moves to become safer, either in all cases or on reaction to whiff only - meter can be preserved by not performing the FRC on hit
[]Can be used as a weaker form of an air or ground roman cancel for certain characters
[]Adds jump options
[]Allows for stored jump options to be used
[*]Allows for projectile limit to be bypassed
[/LIST]
It’s pretty ridiculous to suggest that the developers should hold your hand by designing 7239582039851 special moves to cover each combination of potential scenarios for each move for each character.
IRT Sym_ (because taptalk is being dumb right now)
I’m not targeting Sol specifically. It’s called an example. I’m neither suggesting nor expliciting claiming that FRC Gunflame alone “breaks” the game. What I am saying, however, is that FRCs in essence skew the balance between risk and reward. I use FRC Gunflame as an example because it is the first (and possibly most flagrant) offender to come to mind. A good Sol uses FRC Gunflame the exact same way regardless if the opponent blocks. If the opponent blocks, you FRC the Gunflame to make it safe in order to run forward and hit buttons. If the opponent gets hit by Sol’s strings, you FRC the Gunflame for a full combo. You literally do the exact same thing for pressure that you use if you hit someone. It’s practically fucking braindead.
hahahaha oh man
How can giving characters tools they have to be smart about using be even remotely considered “holding[sic] your hand”?
I think the idea behind Sol’s FRC gunflame is that it would be too powerful if you could do it without any meter, so there had to be some sort of restriction on using it, even if it’s a minor one. Now, force breaks would also have the same 25% tension requirement, but those were new in AC and FRC Gunflame had been around for a while.
But I don’t really see how FRC alone makes the move ‘braindead,’ because the developers almost certainly knew the application of a FRC when they give it to a move, especially a projectile. It seems more like the developers wanted to give Sol this option to blockstring or hitconfirm into a combo and tacked on the 25% tension and the execution requirement as a very slight balancing tool. FRC Gunflame might be a braindead option, but FRC itself isn’t. Plus, as far as FRCs go, Gunflame isn’t a particularly difficult one (IMO).
FRCs have some particularly finicky things about them that necessitate specific timings to make them not even more powerful than they already are. Expanding the FRC window after the current windows lets some questionable baiting opportunities arise. Expanding FRC windows to before the current windows will inevitably allow for more combos to pop up.
I mean sure, there are some situations where it would just make sense to turn a move + its FRC into a force break and remove the FRC timing altogether, but there’s also plenty of reasons to not convert them into a force break. The primary one I see is mostly laziness, since instead of having to program a new move or anything, the developers can just designate certain frames to be FRC’d.
Randomly, out of characters I’ve messed around with, there’s really only three FRCs that I had trouble landing after about five or so minutes in practice, ABA’s final rekka, Dizzy’s ice spike, and Jam’s throw (mostly because I keep messing up the combo that I’m supposed to do right after it). Would the game be better if I was able to just mash the FRC out? Maybe for ABA’s rekka, but probably not for the other two cases.
EDIT: Well, if the actual window where the FRC actually cancels the move remains the same, then maybe the game would be better. Like BB’s five frame buffer thing for link combos, except applied for FRCs. It’d be possible for Dizzy and Jam, but ABA’s rekka would be weird trying to do it like that because you’d probably just end up RCing the 2nd part of the Rekka instead of going for the FRC on the 3rd…
I’d have no problem with expanding the buffering window for FRCs alone, and not the actual window, but it seems like it could lead to problems. I just really don’t see why things that aren’t broken have to be fixed. Couldn’t you just nerf overpowered FRCs in this hypothetical rather than having to remove them from the game altogether? Its like looking at SF4 vanilla and deciding ‘well, Sagat always FADCs his uppercut, and if it hits he gets huge damage off his ultra, so let’s remove FADCs from the game’, rather than just nerfing Sagat’s ultra damage and the blockstun on his uppercut.
Then the game becomes more homogenized. Although, I don’t agree with removing FRCs, I can see definitely see his point. If you remove FADCs, then Sagat can keep the damage on his ultra, and uppercut. Sagat is also forced to commit to the uppercut. Removing FRCs can make your choices more meaningful. I hope I’m wording this correctly.
Dude, that in which you’re talking about is what happens when a character is too straight forward. There just isn’t much Sol can do. He has decent pressure+decent mixups. He’s not Eddie. He can’t mixup overheads like I-no’s forward dash can. Hell, I’d say Order-Sol probably has more tricks up his sleeve than Sol ever did. Hardest thing about him is getting clean hits from whatever on different weight classes. That’s why in his case, removing his FRC is pointless. You’re harming him for no reason. FRC’s just allow some characters to keep doing what they keep doing. Hell I don’t want what FRC’s allow to happen for free. And knocking it down to 50% would be even worse. If FRC’s were really wrecking people, then you’d have a point.
Thing is this is Guilty Gear. One mistake can cost you a ton of life and place you in a bad position. I’d say players were always making meaningful choices.
Because replacing an FRC with a new move that includes the original move + potential FRC followup, wouldn’t allow you to perform any other options other than the one that is hardcoded in for you. Not to mention you’d long run out of input commands for all these new built-in FRC specials before you’d be able to cover all options possible from an FRC.
You make it sound as if you MUST end every blockstring with a gunflame, he has a lot of alternatives. There’s nothing brain dead about it when you consider the fact that he has many different combos that do not involve gunflame frc at all. Even if we focus solely on the combos that involve GF FRC… depending when, where, and who it hits will change the makeup of the combo entirely.
Can you provide another example of an FRC “dumbing down” the game? Your example for Sol was pretty pathetic.
The solution you presented is far less “elegant” than what is already implemented, I would go as far as to say if they tried your approach it would do the exact opposite of what you hope to accomplish with it.
The Sol example is pretty weak in both directions. If I comb my memory I could probably come up with plenty of bad FRCs, but most all of them have been removed from the game. The ones that remain are mostly the good ones, or at least the benign ones, like Sol’s current Gunflame FRC. Earlier in the series, Gunflame’s FRC use to be much earlier and that’s when Gunflame FRC was really stupid. In AC, blockstrings involving Gunflame FRC, the Gunflame is counterhittable before they even get a chance to FRC. Unless they FRC on the 1st frame, in which case, well, you might not even have to block the Gunflame, depending on the blockstring he used. Gunflame FRC blockstrings are mostly a waste of meter, or they would be if AC Sol used meter for his combos.
Earlier examples that no longer exist: Dizzy’s Ice Spike FRC. Use to be FRC-able on the active frames. Made Dizzy pretty bonkers. Now it’s adjusted to really late in her recovery frames. I understand why they gave her the FRC, as they wanted to give her a poking tool to use in certain trouble some matchups, but the old FRC made her Ice Spike much more than a poking tool. Now, if you at least get them to block the Ice Spike, the FRC just saves you from a punish by a frame or two. You don’t get blown up for attempting the poke, but you’re still in a bad place for having it blocked.
Johnny’s Divine Blade FRC use to be really bad, but no one really complains about Johnny, so that one managed to slide by, up till AC. Faust’s Pogo Slam used to have a FRC, no adjustments made on that one, it’s just plain gone now.
AC introduced a lot of new moves, plenty of stuff more toxic than a few bad FRCs, but if we’re limiting ourselves to FRCs, Ky’s Stun Edge FRC is high on my list of most infuriating FRCs to have existed in Guilty Gear. Depending on the matchup, if you space yourself correctly, you can throw out free Stun Edges, you don’t even have to FRC. You only have to FRC when they try to punish you. In which case, the combo that results will make back a lot of the meter you spent to punish their punish. So it’s, space out Stun Edges; no attempt to punish? Then don’t FRC and continue to gain more meter. A punish attempted? Then FRC and punish their punish, while trying to refund the meter spent. For certain matchups (for Johnny matchup?) Stun Edge FRCs are just a fact of life.
Cack complaining about FRCs is like just now complaining that ryu can cancel his sweep into a hadouken.
If he has so many alternatives, then why should he even get FRC Gunflame?
The composition of the combo is irrelevant save for the degree of damage you get for it. It’s about how a tool like that affects the way the offense works.
4r5 hooked you up
Not by a long shot. Super Turbo pressure strings are not as airtight (or long) as most GG strings, and the sweep into fireball only makes the sweep reasonably safe in the sense that you can’t hit Ryu for free afterwards. The pressure ends there, and the reward he gets for hitting the sweep isn’t a huge combo but a knockdown.
Faust only had pogo FRC in the original Guilty Gear XX. It was removed since #reload and never was brought back.
And for the record, I completely disagree with Optimus Cack.
Optimus Cack playing the wrong game.
It must blow his mind that GG characters can do so much. If he knew what options KOF XIII Robert had, he’d have a heart attack. "He has a cross up aerial normal, a FB, a DP, can land any DMs from a low, and a proximity unblockable?! "
Honestly, his troll level goes beyond mine.
Why are people still quoting him?
Something to do till +R.
To keep scrubs like you free foreevvverrrrrrrr.
Looks like we can stop the speculation now,
http://www.arcsystemworks.jp/menu_images/images/main/main_ggxxplus.jpg
We’re getting GGXXAC+ (not R) on XBLA/PSN
Wait what… fuck… not touching this until they patch it to R.
Edit: It’s just a rotating banner. Where’s a page with actual info? I know you guys are dying to cling on to something but still…