Guile reset/mix-up idea *PLEASE READ NEED INPUT*

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
1

Ok guys, I just got a crazy idea for a subtle mix-up/reset game that Guile can do. I did a little thinking AND testing with some stuff concerning this. I know you might be thinking Im crazy and this long ass post might end up being a waste of time, but please just read the entire entry before you shoot this down because Im just trying to think outside the box a little. :smile:

**The Idea:
**
Alright, I play Sakura as my second character and if you know anything about her you know that her mix-ups and resets are a big part of her play style (or at least for me it is anyway), and the reason that this is possible is because Sakura is able to dash underneath her opponents while they are in the air. Keeping this in mind, I had to train myself to realize that the mix up doesnt start when I land an Ex-Shunpu to get my opponent into a juggle state, but it starts the moment I win in the air with a LK or LP. Ive found that dashing under my opponent after I win in the air with a LP or LK catches them of guard most of the time I do it simple because when you are hit in the air on one side you are expecting your opponent to land on that same side. Because of this, Im usually able to win in the air with one of those normals, dash underneath my opponent, then follow up with a BnB like C.LK>C.LP>C.FP>EXShunpu. People dont really expect a mix up to start off of a simple LP or LK so pretty much what Im saying is that its effective.

Alright, now how this applies to Guile. Guile doesnt have the most outstanding dash in this game, but it is fast enough for him to dash underneath his opponents when he wins in the air with either a LP, LK, or MP depending on how high you hit them with the MP. (All of his other normals push the opponent too far away to dash underneath them). If you apply the same logic that I use to start the mix up with Sakura, then you might have the potential for a nice subtle mix-up game with Guile. I was practicing this in the training room for a bit and its really not that difficult. All you would have to do is hit your opponent with a LP, LK, or MP in the air and then simply tap F>F so that you would be on the other side of the opponent when they land.

How could this help me as a player or Guile as a character?

Ok, now that Ive explained what the hell Im talking about, let me explain why I think this might be beneficial to Guile. There have been many times when I play where I will win in the air with one of these normals and when I land, there is really no legit follow up to take advantage of the opportunity just created by hitting the opponent in mid air. Usually what I do in this situation is a Flash Kick, throw, or a back dash (Just depending on the situation). But to be honest, these arent very good follow ups because its a guessing game and those are never fun. Lets say I win in the air and do a Flash Kick as soon as my feet hit the ground; If my opponent is blocking then Im wide open to be punished. Ok, now lets say that I win in the air then go for the grab; but wait, my opponent just gave me a big fat DP sandwich and that shit was nasty. The opponent could also tech grab in this situation which would kill the opportunity and leave you with no options once again. And lastly back dashing is just a safe escape when you are trying to telegraph an opponents move so there is no need to explain why thats not a good follow up.

NOW lets apply the logic that I used with the Sakura mix up to Guile just to give you an idea of how this might play out.
Ok, one thing I think all Guiles do at some point is bait jump ins by following Sonic Booms so lets take that for example. Lets say I throw out a LP-Boom and follow it and my opponent tries jumping it but I predict this and hit him in the air with a LP. After this I dash underneath them to catch them off guard and I catch them blocking the wrong way. I could hit them with a C.LK>C.LP>C.MP>FlashKick and get some good damage in on them. If you are having trouble picturing exactly what Im talking about then here is a very short visual add I did. The vid is private and only people who click the link can see it (I think its a 25 person limit so only watch once and if it fills up Ill just repost for those who need it). I didnt want to make a public vid because I dont want to put out any info if its not legit first which is why Im consulting other Guile players before hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch_private?v=RnFry9wy8Fw&sharing_token=XOVDJtRphcLiHklPCZuCTg

Ok so thats pretty much the idea but it isnt limited to just baited jump ins. One thing that I found is that if you bait a DP and block it, you can do the same thing. The timing on the hit that you must do in the air with Guile will be a little tricky but it can be mastered with practice (Just like anything with Guile or this game for that matter). I think this is where this little trick will get its best use if its decided that its something worth putting into peoples game play. Lets say you are playing Ken and you do a late J.RH to bait a DP and you are successful. While Ken is suspended in the air, you can simple jump forward and do the same thing that was shown in the first visual except this time you are just resetting a wiffed DP. I decided not to do a visual add for this example so just use your imagination. Im willing to bet that nobody would be expecting Guile do something like this if they were playing one.

**Comparing and Contrasting: **

Ok, now lets talk about the main reason this thing might be effectiveā€¦ DAMAGE and OPTIONS! This is what this gives you. Lets take the same example I used for the Guile mix up where I follow my boom and predict a jump in by my foe. Only this time, I do an air throw instead. Im not exactly sure of the damage but I think the America Toss does 150, Back Breaker does 180 or something close to that. We can also use the J.FP or J.RH as alternative examples here. Both of the air normals (J.FP and J.RH) do 100 damage. Ok, keep those numbers in mind. Now these arent bad but this is nothing compared to the damage that could be potentially down with the mix up/reset string. The J.LP does 50 damage in the air and the C.LK>C.LP>C.MP>Flash Kick combo does 228 damage. If you combine those to numbers you have 288 damage, which is a significant amount more than the standard air throw that most Guiles would do in that situation. This is a pretty big deal. Turning a situation where you could have done a small amount of damage into one where you can do a substantial amount of damage can make or break a match.
Ok, I think I covered everything that I was thinking of. And now I wanted to ask you guys some questions and brain storm I guess to see if this can work.

**1) Do you think this is a good idea? Why or why not?
2) Could you see yourself doing this in a match?
3) Do you already do this in a match?
4) Do you think its practical?
5) Was this a long ass post?
**

Ok guys thats all I got. If you have some criticism please be respectful. Id love to hear you guys thought on this because I know there are some pretty knowledgeable Guiles on this forum. Ok, fire away.

2

  1. Interesting idea. I have NEVER thought of using Guile like this. This would most certainly throw people off considering opponents would never, EVER, expect this kind of shenanigan (yes, for Guile, it is) from a Guile player. Could be used sparingly, maybe one or twice during a round, since good (better) players donā€™t jump in blindly as much.

  2. After hearing this from you, I might attempt this in a couple of games here or there.

  3. No.

  4. Good for mind games, I canā€™t see this as a viable tactic in the long runā€¦ having a DP in the face when the opponent hits the floor is so saddening. DP > FADC > AWWWWTRA! =(. Alternatively, while this opens up higher damage potential, consider if your opponent is some how able to block it (the mix up) successfully. He just got away scot free of a backbreaker! Also, more seasoned players know better to jump forwards over a projectile - they would rather n.jump or focus or just plan block it rather than put themselfs in danger. Honestly, Iā€™ve watched some matches where some of the players donā€™t jump at all in a round. How the hell do they do itā€¦

  5. Long ass posts are useful - especially when theyā€™re full of (useful) analysis.

P.S. With different A2A (air to air) normals, I assume opponents get knocked back differently in terms of distance (I donā€™t know, I donā€™t really notice). So another way is to use different A2A normals to add MOAR mindgames if you do opt for the reset thing.

3

I donā€™t see this as a practical use for a whiffed SRK. couldnā€™t you simply hit them with the same combo when they land? All it does is give the opponent a chance to escape a punish.

4

I understand what you mean. I should have did a vid showing how this would work on an opponent who whiffs a DP but Iā€™m just feeling lazy right now. But the same logic applies. If you hit them with the same combo C.LK>C.LP>C.MP>Flash Kick then that is a good punish, but you could add 50 to that if you were to reset the whiffed DP like the initial entry states. I know itā€™s hard to picture/imagine, especially without a visual, but if this turns out to be something that other Guileā€™s approve then Iā€™m going to expand on the use of this thing.

I should have mentioned this but you would really only be able to apply this if the opponent whiffs a FP Dp or EX Dp, but I think that what most Ryuā€™s and Sagat use anyway. But yeah.

5

Ok, thanks. You are definitely right. This isnā€™t something that can just be depended on to win a match or anything, but itā€™s definitely a new wrinkle that I think can be explored with Guile. You mentioned that most good players new jump over Boom but the limits are not limited to only this. There are times where Iā€™ve played and me an my opponent will just jump out right at each other. You could start it then too I suppose. Following the boom seemed like a practical example which is why I used that but I would have to do more testing to find more set ups for this I guess. Thanks for the input man.

6

I guess itā€™s all about how much youā€™re willing to risk(in the SRK scenario). If you are confident enough you can get away with it, then I donā€™t see why not. It just seems a little too unsafe for only 50 dmg for my tastes.

Other than that, I REALLY like this idea!
Oh, and thanks for the comment on my j.HK > Ultra vid :slight_smile:

7

1) Do you think this is a good idea? Why or why not? of course. iā€™m impressed. iā€™d never have thought of that idea. itā€™s always good to test new things out.
2) Could you see yourself doing this in a match? no
3) Do you already do this in a match? no
4) Do you think its practical? no. this reset is way too risky for guile. it also heavily relies on the opponent jumping, which they wonā€™t always do. in fact, just attempting this reset could see you eat an ultra for your troubles. the difference with sakura is that her reset is setup by ex shunpu which launches the opponent into the air. itā€™s a much safer concept.

8
  1. I like your thinking. Itā€™s a good idea because you are trying to innovate - but not sure itā€™s a good idea (see 4.)
  2. Maybe. Once in a while. Could be useful rushdown tool. Much, much more likely to follow sb with c.hp as AA though.
  3. I guess - I do sometimes dash in while opponent is in air to cross them but I donā€™t continue the attack becauseā€¦
  4. I donā€™t think itā€™s a true juggle/reset - so the opponent has opportunity to do something. I can see Guile eating srk.FADC.Ultra from this.
  5. Post length = how long is a piece of string? If it has been thought out, is a sincere discussion, and is efficiently described then the length looks after itself. So, good post - thanks!
9

If only you could do this off an FADC FKā€¦

10

No problem man. Iā€™ve never tried that combo but Iā€™m sure that shits hard as well to do. Itā€™s like a 1 frame link on roids or something. Good shit man.

11

Wouldnā€™t that be grand! Ahhhhh to dream! :smile:

12

Iā€™ll just bunch these 5 answers into one, because i am drunk and moderately apethetic.

This mixup is great when done on accident and ONLY on accident. By this I mean that you go for an air throw, but mess it up and a j.lk sticks out. This has happened to me often, and i will always dash underā€¦ however, I normally will rarely try to follow through with anything and use it as reversal bait.

Short version of what I would like to get at is that if this helps you win matches against opponents, then your opponents are probably not very good. Guileā€™s dash is slow, dumpy, and completely un-iambiguous. Even if people have never seen guileā€™s dash under reset in their entire lives, they will be able to get reset by j.lk, visually see guile dash under them and say ā€œOh hey, look at that, guileā€™s on the other side of me, I better block that way.ā€ Donā€™t take this the wrong wayā€¦ this is viable if you ever land a j.lk for the reset. However, you should never be ā€œgoing for itā€ so to speak. With guile, guaranteed damage is almost always better then possible damage.

Also, Iā€™ll admit, I didnā€™t read all of your post. I blame alcohol. However, let it be known that Iā€™ve done a pretty good amount of fidelling myself with this, and well, ya.

13

LOLā€¦ I think you put a pretty good response to be intoxicated. But thanks for the input man. I think that the application of something like this is very limited and I agree with what you said about guaranteed and potential damage; however, I donā€™t think that this is necessarily a bad thing to practice JUST IN CASE you get a chance. I always take this type of approach when practicing things in training mode. For instance, I practice C.LK>C.LP>C.MP>Booom>Super>Ultra. Now the chance of me actually getting a chance to do this combo in a match are very low. I usually save up and build meter pretty quick, but in a tough match Iā€™m most likely going to have to use a ExBoom or ExFlashKick here and there. With that being said, I still donā€™t think itā€™s a bad idea to practice or train for it despite it being a low chance of me getting a chance to do it. Even if I play 100 matches and I only get 1 single chance to do that combo, I want to be prepared. Hope Iā€™m making since. Overall I think you are right but like I said in the original post, Iā€™m just trying to think outside the box a little.

14

This is actually something that I think would eliminate DP>FADC>Ultra by shotos. Hereā€™s my logic. If I win in the air with one of those normals then dash underneath my opponent, then the input for the DP that my opponent must do would change. To my knowledge, DPā€™s donā€™t auto-correct in this situation so if the opponent entered N,F,D,DF+P (The Z motion for the DP), then it would actually be N,B,D,DB+P. So pretty much the input would be useless because switching sides changes the input necessary to punish. Am I right? Hope I explained that wellā€¦

15

true on SLINKUN post. Sometimes you expect a jump and you go for an air grab too early and the little knee pops out. I dont dash forward too much , on the contrary I dash back, to start my zone game, this is good info, thx for posting

16

I went ahead and made the vid a public one on youtube so now any and everyone can see it. Iā€™ve advised people to come and read this thread so hopefully they come and see the discussion before deciding whether or not to incorporate this into their games.

17

I really think the DP may autocorrect. As the shoto is coming down, he inputs the command, and this could be before the shotoā€™s avatar registers that youā€™re on the other side (due to your dash). You can see at about second 3.2 in your vid, just as he lands to the floor, and youā€™re both facing opposite eachother. Iā€™m not positive, but I really think itā€™s worth confirming.

Regardless, this can still be a good tactic, especially for characters which donā€™t have any great wake-ups. Nice thinking here.

18

I think you may be right here. I was playing some offline matches with one of my friends. He is decent but nothing special at all. But anyway, I won in the air and did a dash to the other side and I still ate a DP. That made me realize that the applications of this thing a VERY slim. Itā€™s possible but not very practical. I guess I kind of already knew this but when I did it in a match it just clarified it for meā€¦

And o yeah, I deleted your comment form my youtube vid by mistake so thatā€™s my bad there. Good post though man.

19

I was playing my friend yesterday too. He was boxer, I went for the ā€˜resetā€™ and yeah. I got a face full of c.jabs. =(

20

LOLā€¦ So I guess we are slowly finding out that this is Possible but no Practical as the Myth Busters would say. Iā€™m glad I asked you guys about this first.