Guile is definately top tier in my opinion. I also think he has good buttons. My fave buttons are
b H.P- fast, good range, crush counters, hits crouchers, easy to confirm, on hit it knocks the opponent back far enough to get a v skill out.
Sabot kick (f or b m.k). b. Mk for creating space for boom crosses, f.mk for pressure and crushing lows. On counterhit cr.lp combos off it.
Standing lp- i use this to rush down and get my s.mp out (lp to mp) frame traps and beats out 3f jabs.
Im still trying to find uses for all his buttons, but what im starting to figure out is there are buttons that you use while backing away and creating distance (b. Hp, b.hK, b.mk) for zoning.
Then there are buttons for his rush down
(F H.P, f m.k, c lk target combos)
I use my back buttons for defense while charging up for sonic cross, then rush hard behind it for pressure and mixups.
Still getting used to the spacing on his anti airs.
Been messing with resets. Iām pretty sure thereās a really good one out there if we try to find it.
The jump in the end is pretty ambiguous but only because the dummy gets hit by booms that a real player wouldnāt get hit by, so this one is pretty ass. But itās got me thinking about legit resets that can be used every round (Iām talking other than the loop into reset because we all know that stuns).
Great matches. Reminds me that I need to play a bit more simplistic.
In other news, Daigo spoke about what he thinks of Guile in SF5. Hereās the highlights:
Daigo thinks Guile is strong. Not Ryu/Chun level but better than average. Says he wonāt be dropping Ryu for Guile as Ryu is the best.
He thinks heās the best character in the game when he has his opponent cornered.
V-Skill should be used sparingly as it doesnāt build meter.
He thinks Guile is strong against any character that has no option but to come towards him (Cammy)
Thinks heās good on both defence and offense.
Loves the fact he can walk inside his 2 hit V Skill boom.
Guile has some terrible matches (the Karin match Iāve found to be awful) but overall he is really damn good. No idea how people think this character is bad.
Cammy can v-skill a boom on reaction and force to block. She can definitely get in.
This is my number one go-to online, lol. So many free Flash Kicks if you just V-Skill and wait. Then after like 3-4 times you can start actually Booming haha
Karin feels kind of bad just because itās hard to properly punish her anti-fireball spinny-arm move-thing (since itās high block then low block). Maybe this is where the cr.LP > st.MP > F+HP Target Combo has some use?
I also really donāt like Necalli. Itās super awkward to punish The Discsās Guidance at certain ranges, which really sucks. Also his V-Skill is annoyingly effective and his jumping attacks are way harder to AA with jab/cr.HP for some reason :\ Iāve had success waiting and reacting to Necalliās V-Skill with jumpins, so thatās kind of niceā¦ but then youāre playing an aggro game against a character with better aggro, so I donāt really think itās a good idea in the long run. Feels awkward.
After playing Guile for a few weeks I think strong enough to be competitive except at the highest level or against opponents who understand the matchup well. Most top pros know this and few will try to doubt the naysayers especially with the frequency of unfavorable matchups. And this talk about Guile being the first zoner is nonsense when Sim has been lurking since inception. Guile suffers from lower than normal damage, few combo links, and really only one CC with combo potential from neutral
It feels like the strategy to beat Guile is simple: switch to baits instead of meaty wakeup when Guile has EX meter, get in and keep on the pressure or corner him. Once you take away the sonic boom/cross the only thing really left to worry about is FK which can only done from crouching position (unless you figure out a use for faultless move)
On a side note, Fchamp ranked Guile 6th from last only in front of (Alex, Rashid, Fang, Bison?, and Zangief)
I know its early days still but I think that guile has issues that give him a lot of bad match ups. His tool set and game plan is basically the same as its always been. His booms are worse but he has a v skill booms and v trigger to buff them up.
In this game a whole bunch of characters have the ability to get around fireball pressure. Previous post mentioned necalli and Karin being difficult, necalli had disc guidance and seizmos, Karin has v skill palm and rassenha. Yet guiles gameplan revolves around fireballs. So he can just not fireball and play a ground game? His normals are OK for footsies at best and he will get reckt by the likes of Karin and necalli.
Big problem is no big damage conversion off of buttons.
The meta in SFV really really rewards ham/random/offense. Thsts not the way guile is really designed to play. If he gets jumped in on heās not really very capable of dealing with up close pressure. No 3 framers, no meterless reversal.
The tournament scene has been Kens, necallis, Karins straight up mauling people. Itās very difficult to not get overwhelmed with any character. Particularly a guy with mediocre defensive options and particularly someone who wants to fireball you.
Itās a shame. I really wanted to like guile and I like the way he feels a lot. He could be great if the game wasnt SFV.
Guile does have one of the lowest skill caps in the game. Not only does Guile suffer from lower than normal damage conversion like I mentioned in the previous post, the other main issue is one of his specials (FK) is irrelevant in standing position and maintaining charge from crouch cuts his normal options in half. What separates the excellent Guiles from the average ones is the execution and technique from neutral: the ability to mix his normals with boom pokes and when to switch from defensive crouch the more versatile standing position.
That said, Iām still going to main Guile until my execution issues are resolved.
I think whilst itās frustrating right now, and trust me I know the frustration, Guile hasnāt really been developed yet whatsoever. Perhaps it takes that person to show us how to play him in order for us all to learn. Do you think the Nash skill levels would be as high as they are if it wasnāt for Infiltration showing certain techniques? I follow LI Joe on Twitter and Iāve seen him tweet more than once about how Infil used something he didnāt even think of before. Would Dhalsim be as fleshed out as he is if it wasnāt for F Champ? Whatās really unfortunate is that Dieminion has moved to GA, so we wonāt get that weekly knowledge from Next Level.
Iām not saying lets just all be lazy and copy a top player for us to all level up our game, but sometimes you need to see the way someone else uses the character for you to realise how to use a move, or how to position yourself properly. Right now thereās not much high level play of Guile (sorry but I donāt count sponsored players using Guile on day one as high level play). I certainly havenāt watched enough Guile footage.
Daigo thinks this character is good. Not Ryu good but definitely strong. I know heās not right 100% of the time but I trust him on this one because heās used Guile a lot in the past and was one of the first to say he was strong in SSF4.
Are we really using the V-Skill properly yet? The target combos? The upside down kick? I doubt we are being optimal with the character yet. I know my Guile is nowhere near the level I want it to be at right now. I feel completely helpless against high ranked Nash and Dhalsim players. Why (other than them being the better player)? Lack of match up knowledge, lack of character optimisation and also because they have far more experience with their character than I do with mine.
Sorry to ask this since I donāt have the Prima guide:
Does anyone know the airborne frames startup on Upside-Down Kick (F+HK) and the Van Dammenator (F/B+MK)? If someone could check, that would be greatly appreciated. Think I told someone the wrong frames for F+HK airborne last night and want to double check.
Appreciate it it, as well as to @NowItsAngeTime for covering me. Havenāt been using Dantarionās hitbox viewer because Iāve got no background images behind the hitboxes (I assume there is supposed to be something the hitboxes are superimposed on top of, at least) but I could see roughly from the Youtube video posted earlier in this thread or this forum that both definitely appeared to be later than what I told that guy UDK was. Still not sure where I got 3f from or how it got stuck in my mind after scanning Guileās section in the Prima guide weeks ago.
At least I was right when I told him all VT-cancelled normals are plus, at least according to the Google doc frame data. Havenāt tested it out myself. Praise Gilly.
EDIT: I just realized I asked when they were airborne. Both are Definitely, DEFINITELY not airborne, thank you for correcting that. They just hop over lots of lows with the lower foot hurtbox being removed in those specific frames you gave me.
We all know that Guile is a grat zoner, but i think the most overlooked aspect of his game is his oki and shimmy game.
Shimmy- f h.k and b/f m.k go over lows which counters the shimmys weaknes to long range crouching normals. Also b H.P and b.H.K work wonders in shimmy situations.
Oki- Flask kick, target combos, and c. Hk all result in knockdowns that give you enough time to hang a v-skill over them. The opponent has three options.
1. On Block- high low mixups, throws, or shimmy.
2. DP.- every decent player knows who has an instant invulnerable reversal and should be charging/blocking and ready to punish
3. Back wakeup- Guile loves space
I like the way his damage is balanced. He doesnāt have a ton of confirms into solid damage, so you have to be successful in neutral. However, when loaded on meter + in the corner he gets easily the best damage in the game. Seems a fair trade off to me
Also, Iāve been having some success going for the meaty 5mp and then either going into 5mp, 6hp for the CH confirm, or following up with 5Hp, UDK, or 2Mk for a frame trap.
Been putting a lot of time into Guile. I havenāt played all the matchups but this is how I feel right now for the ones I play frequently. One thing I think that is hard to get around with Guile is that its much easier to get a read on Sonic Booms in this game and get that big jump in combo which makes Guiles life really hard. I believe you are supposed to supplant this with lots of Vskill faking in the midrange.
Chun - I think of all the matchups I havenāt played a good Chun Enough. Good Chun seems to do a lot of what Guile does better than Guile but I may just need to learn the normals more.
R.Mika - I think Guile wins this match but you have to have strong footsies and reactions. I dontā think Mika has anything that can really take out Castle Guile without the player on defense losing. One thing to remember is to push your advantage with guile and use meatys on their wakeup to stuff EX peach and fake going for a meaty to bait and punish. Mikaās normals are overall worse than Guiles. Cr.mk is a big star in this match for how it beats f(b)+mp. I believe end game this is in Guileās Favor
Ken - Overall an easier matchup than Ryu. If you can react to the BS def winnable match. The one notable thing is Kenās cr.mp gives a lot of trouble but you can use b+hp to counter poke it pretty well.
Ryu - This match is big trouble for me right now. I can see it getting better as I figure out the zoning patterns but I still feel like its pretty hard. The old Sonic Boom backfist stuff doesnāt work as well as in other games. You really have to be better at predicting the fireballs than the Ryu player. I think this is hard and will probably stay in Ryuās favor, though maybe there are some fireball patterns and normal situations I am missing, right now I just think Ryu does a lot of Guile stuff better than Guile anywhere that isnāt fullscreen.
Karin - I had a lot of trouble with this matchup, until I started playing an aggressive active Guile and then it was a lot better. Your goal is to push Karin to the corner and then wall her in there using Sonic Booms to start frame advantage and making st.mk whiff. This may still be in Karinās favor but once you stop trying to approach it as zoning Guile it becomes easier.
Alex - I think this matchup is harder than it should be just because of the midrange fireball issue I was talking about before. Then when Alex knocks you down his mixup game is strong. Best to try and play this from as far away from Alex as you can I think and try and keep out of the corner.
Thats the matchups I play most often as I see them. If anyone has tips especially against Ryu, let me know.
I still havenāt played a good Chun in this match either lol. I agree with most of the rest. I think Ken is a problem though. Iāve found Karin easier than Ken but that doesnāt necessarily mean Karin is a match Guile wins. I definitely feel more comfortable in the Laura and Mika matches than I did when I had to use Bison.