Grommet sticks for fighting games

Tech Talk
21

So long as any screw adjustments can be securely locked in place, an adjustable engage distance would be an excellent addition (cost permitting of course). Less moving parts is generally preferred from a reliability perspective, but if you have a good locking/latching mechanism then it might not be an issue.

In Tekken specifically, it is to the player’s advantage to be moving at all times (constantly alternating left and right), so the transition between engage and neutral is generally a smooth one on those sticks.

It is also a bad idea to let go of the lever at any time; most if not all players guide the return to neutral themselves. The only sticks I can think of with a sharp (rough) mechanical return to neutral are American style battops (a la Happ), and they return so hard that they could almost actuate the opposite direction if the battop had enough inertia or if the switches were worn enough. Generally speaking, so long as your lever is not capable of bouncing and actuating another switch upon returning to neutral (assuming your hands are off of it), it should be fine. I would test with heavier balltops to make sure this is not an issue.

22

Aside from the grommet, a few other things will have to be answered.

-What microswitches will be used?
-What mounting plate?
-Will the shaft be compatible with existing 35mm ball tops?
-What kind of gate will be used (square is the generally preferred one for fighters)?

Ideally though, something like this should
a) have its microswitch assembly compatible with the 5-pin harness used for the JLF, LS-32-01 or Hayabusa.
b) be able to fit in existing mounting brackets for the Sanwa JLF or Hori Hayabusa.
c) be compaitible with existing 35mm ball tops as well as Sanwa and Seimitsu bat tops (via adaptor)
d) have multiple gate options (square, circle, octagona, etc.)

23

The quick answer is it will have all/do all those things. I’m not limited to choosing one plate size or hole pattern because I can make as many variations as I like, because at least at first I will cut them myself (it’s not molded).

I expect most will choose LS32 plate size or JLF plate size.

I will do microswitch versions (levered and non-levered if that’s wanted) but that’s not very exciting and you’ve already got korean sticks with grommets and snap-micros.

What will be new is grommet plus FLASH1. And I’m excited about introducing old style leaf switches to this crowd, this afternoon I’ve shrunk my leaf design down to LS32 size (I haven’t built it yet though).

I’ve also got an ‘ultimate’ switch in mind which will be contactless and tuneable and compatible with my external gate arrangement.

I abandoned my 2part shaft idea which allowed changing the handle from above the panel in favour of changing the complete shaft and knob. That decision was based on the MAME market where people will change the handle when they change the gate (so they will be under the panel anyway). To make this safer the stick doesn’t have e-clips or springs.

For this market I don’t think above the panel handle change is needed. But I know you might want to remove the handle for transport, I could bring back a two part design that splits above the grommet if that is preferred to removing the whole shaft.

24

Just make the lower part of the shaft compatible with @Phreakazoid‌ 's “the Link”.

http://www.phreakmods.com/products/the-link

That said, the simpler version would be to keep it like how Japanese sticks allow you to change the handle. Most people on Japanese sticks don’t really change out the shaft anyway.

25

It looks expensive for a general solution.

I’ll see what he thinks, I’ll probably just leave it to him to produce a bottom half for my stick if he wants to. And then I could add it as an initial purchase option if he wants to supply them to me, or it can just be an aftermarket mod.

26

I would recommend leaving novelties such as quick detachable shafts as an (aftermarket) option for the end user. Such an addition could easily double the base cost of the design.

27

Don’t try to please everyone. Adding features like a removable stickshaft and a variety of microswitches is nice, but frankly, just having the option to swap shafts and switches in would be enough, and would reduce cost and pressure at your end.
Make sure phreak’s link is compatible, the enclosure and mounting plate fits in a TE and common switches aren’t too much of a pain to install and most people will be happy to pick it up, with the intent of modding it to their own preferences at their end. Most unorthodox players buy their sticks already with their own spring strengths and actuators etc in mind in the fighting games scene, not necessarily looking for it to fit their personal preferences right out the box.

EDIT: haha beat me to it Des :stuck_out_tongue:

28

Ideally, the minimum spec would be something like what I stated in my previous post.

29

On the mounting front, here are some different options.

I prefer the integral plastic plate because it’s fewer parts but it doesn’t make much difference on cost. I’m guessing that the metal plate will be preferred though because it keeps everything the same, even the same screws will work.

For the same geometry, the external grommet allows a shallower mounting depth. But how much space is usually available above the mounting plate?

I’ve drawn the fightstick with welded on bent metal lugs. Is that pretty standard? or is it just certain brands or fightsticks?

What other methods are used?

30

Would a conversion kit on the Seimitsu LS-32-01 or LS-40-01 be viable? The upper chassis/pivot assembly should be large enough to replace it with a custom grommet assembly, plus you get all the nice features of the Seimitsu like the microswitch PCB, adjustable restrictor, etc.

While things like leaf switches are interesting, I just don’t see them physically fitting in modern fight sticks, especially Vewlix w/ 59mm stick spacing. Leafs from a Crown CWL304 may fit, however.

All I know of are the current Crown/Myoungshin/TaeYoung stuff and the GroovyGameGear Dominux8. Historically there’s the early leaf Wico, late leaf/micro Wico, and the 49-way units from Williams and Happ. Everything out there seems to be a variant of these.

Speaking of Wico, there’s a real need for new-build replacement shafts and grommets on classic Wico units. As far as I know, only three grommet/shaft sizes were ever made (1/4", 17/64", and 3/8"). Reproduction 4" Robotron shafts are out there, but NOS 2.75"/3.5"/4" shafts are unobtanium these days, especially in 2.75". Would be nice to see new shafts that take modern 35mm ball tops. The 3/8" shafts also fit in the Wico/Happ Perfect 360.

Effectively zero. Stick with the screw-on removable plate (and extend to allow 2.6"x3.0" mounts like on a Sanwa JLW). A Sanwa JLW-style mounting plate should keep most everybody happy, including the fight stick and original arcade cabinet guys.

31

I didn’t know about the Crown CWL304. Doesn’t appear to be made anymore? It also looks like just breathing on it would send it out of adjustment.

Don’t worry, I’ve got an American version of this stick for the arcade/Wico crowd. But that’s on other forums.

I wouldn’t do a kit that needed someone to alter say their LS40 body. But I could do a stick that has similar geometry characteristics to the LS40 and using the same or similar microswitch. I suppose I could even supply it without switches.

What does 59mm stick spacing mean? The distance to the nearest button?

My leaf version is down to about the size of an LS32 body.

32

I should note that, it seems to me a lot of the preference for say stick A over stick B is due to them having certain characteristics like engage distance, throw distance, stiffness.

My stick will allow you to tailor all of those, because I’ll be offering a wide range of gate sizes, choice of grommet stiffness, some switch systems will have adjustable engage, or I could do variants that mount the switches very slightly differently, or do multiple actuators.

One thing that is fixed on any given stick is the pivot to switch distance. There are advantages to making that longer but it gives a deeper stick. So I could offer options there, but there can be too much choice!

33

Here’s a good article on mount styles and mounting brackets:
http://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/mounting_layering.html

Some candid thoughts:
Option D is what I would go for, personally, as I would prefer the metal bracket and ability to make a flush mount for thick panels.

On-the-fly, the variable I can see myself altering most is the actuation force (grommet stiffness). Pretty much all of my levers are preferred to have minimal deadzone and shorter throw (engage distance). I also almost exclusively use square gates.

34

Not much.

From experience, the bent, welded metal bracket is the most common one used in both home console arcade sticks and actual arcade panels.

Most players prefer the Myoungshin Fantas due to being stiffer. Might as well base the default characteristics of this project on that.

35

Some time ago, like 2 or 3 years eTokki used to sell a stiffer grommet for Taeyoung Fantas but since that stick is now out of the market I second d3v on taking the Myoungshin as your default.

36

You definitely need to go for a separate mounting plate that can be rotated. It’s pretty common to have the control panel’s mount orientation and what the PCB expects the orientation to be not agree, so you need to rotate the mounting plate in relation to the joystick’s body/PCB.

As dimensions of the mounting plate, combining all the cutouts of the Sanwa JLF, Seimitsu VF, and IL Eurojoystick into a single plate should take care of ~99% of what people need I imagine. You may also want to put JLF-style 59mm 2-bolt mounting on the lever body itself as well.

This is horizontal measure from center of the joystick shaft to the center of the closet button.

http://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/layout.html

37

So metal flat plates and S-plates it is.

Unfortunately I can’t make it take the JLF plate because its holes are too near the centre. I might be able to make it accept seimitsu plates.

This is good actually. Metal plates for the Japanese version, and one-piece plastic bodies for the American version. It further differentiates them while following the norms for each type.

38

Doesn’t have to be the JLF plate, just as long as it fits the existing brackets.

39

No, I’m saying single metal plate and central lever assembly in all cases. If you look carefully at the detailed mechanical drawings from Sanwa Denshi, Seimitsu, and Industrias Lorenzo on the specific models I mentioned you’ll notice that they are very similar, yet don’t really overlap on the external mount points, which means you can put them all on one plate. You’ll notice things like the Eurojoystick’s four inner slots and central 35mm hole line up with 50x75mm Korean units and the external four holes are on the 2.60"x3.00" mounting standard, etc.

You’ll end up with something that looks vaguely like this:


+

An example of this done in one-piece molded plastic is the Suzo 500 Universal STC joystick, which is 40x84mm, 50x75mm, and 2.60"x3.00", if memory serves.

I think a lot of people will be happy with something that looks vaguely like a Crown CWJ-303A with a Sanwa/Seimitsu-style 5-pin harness, standard 6mm ball/bat tops, short/long shafts (metal/wood panel), and removable/rotatable universal metal adapter plate.

Just replace the proprietary center section with whatever you need for your design. It’s only the external 2/4-bolt mounting points and interface plane that matter.

The “S” plate is really only used on certain older Seimitsu designs as their lever shaft is shorter than normal and they need a step-up plate to make up the vertical height difference. More modern Seimitsu units, along with virtually everything else on the market, use a flat mounting interface.

The enclosure interface that the lever & plate interact with is virtually always stepped on metal panels to allow for screw length clearance. Designs that don’t use screws typically have threaded studs (ex: Jasen’s Customs Panzer, SNK Neo Geo MVS cabinets). Wood control panels typically have a countersunk joystick hole on the underside with carriage through bolts.

40

If you aren’t already, I suggest hitting up the following forums:
KLOV
SHMUPS
Assembler
Build Your Own Arcade Controls