Look at the 3 vids me vs. abovedalaw. I did those with fraps as I played (instead of my usual method of just playing a replay and frapsing that).
Fraps SUCKS for this game. It kicks your framerate (unless your computer is way faster than mine I guess). It made it stutter so bad on my side that I would miss inputs/etc. Timing was almost impossible. It also can cause the system to have moments where it hangs for a sec, which is no fun for either player. On the flip side, abovedalaw said I didn’t slow his game down any (except for the couple of times it paused us for a sec). It just hurt my game.
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[]Don’t anti-air focus. Use lk tatsu, cr.mk, parry, and cr.hp to anti-air. Gouken has good anti-airs, you shouldn’t do something punishable and gimmicky. If you do the parry on reaction to seeing their actual jump-in attack you’ll never get baited. Cr.hp is a really good AA, try it.
[]Punish with cr.hp xx EX Palm. Don’t do just a cr.mp. If you have ultra, punish with backthrow -> ultra.
[*]Learn Gouken’s other pokes. Cr.hk , s.hk, and s.mp.
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That’s never going to go away with Gouken. Basically, get used to the fact that you’re garbage up close.
Otherwise, make a note as early as you can in a match if the other guy is a masher, because it means the sad little cr.jab x3, st.lk, cr.lk string we have is completely useless after the 3rd jab. No reset, no DF kick OR throw, no walkup throw, certainly no kara throw. You have nothing. Mashed 3 frame jabs can beat or trade with the transition, mashed SRK beats it period. Even a 4th jab will get beaten because of the range.
The string itself is only useful for setting up the above, so once you see mashing, give up on it immediately and start following up the j.mk with an immediate cl.hk. Comes out just as quick (4 frames), and pushes them back a nice bit, setting up a potential DRK (D’ohryuken) whiff. It trumps the full blockstring in terms of both damage and stun too, if it hits.
In general, it looks like you need to work on using Gouken’s AA normals, which i think are pretty much the lifeblood of the char. cr.fp is really nice, but is slow and won’t hit crossups. cl.hk will and is quick, but you really are screwed if you misjudge the spacing. Too deep though, and that’ll whiff too, leaving cr.lk as a juke into throw. You’re basically fucked getting in AND when they get in, so there’s a lot of importance on dealing with making it less free to jump in on you.
Also, FB pressure. Charge is for timing meaties and generally trying to fuck up the rhythm if they’re not FBing or don’t have one. Ties strongly to the EX DF mixup, because you want that when they’re in either recovery or block. If they’re pinned, fine, keep throwing lps. If they start jumping over or have proven to have a brainwave, then you mix it up. Otherwise, they’re going to go “DERP I GOTZ FIRBAL TUU” making an early mp.skadou useless and possibly hazardous. Unlike Ryu, you really don’t want to be using them that much within jumpin range since it’s just too sketchy to pick between hp and mp skadous. AA normals are more reliable, but also they’re not SRKs so if they jump over the close FB nothing’s going to bail you out.
If someone is intent on mashing jab during your blocksting, do jab jab and then low counter. Although I have no idea why’d you wanna jab with Gouken anyways. Just s.mk/cr.hp/cr.mp xx hado.
Though I use cr.fp… I’ve been using his c.mk more as an anti-air since it seems to come better on reaction (especially for close up jumps). I’ve managed to kill a lot of akuma demon flip palm setups through that alone.
As far as the mashers are concerned. Unless SSFIV fixes his jabbing hitstun, get used to it. Sometimes I throw out two jabs and stop as bait, and watch an opponent whiff an SRK. Punish accordingly. They’ll learn after second or third time. That’s a plus side to Gouken-- he can punish hard if one makes a mistake.
As far as the video, not bad… take more advantage of throwing out a palm when the opponent is in juggle state from one of your fireballs. Easy damage. Don’t go for a psychic ultra too often (believe me I used to think I can catch mashers all the time, but it’s not worth the risk in the long run).
The counter isn’t going to do anything against a reversal SRK, which is possible even if the jabs hit. cr.jabs tend to end in a counterhit. Or i guess block, best case, if the jab is 4 frames.
Anything ending in a skadou is really a mess at close range, and if they’re mashing SRK fierce SRK will go right through the fireball even if the mp hits. Otherwise, they can just mash throw and that’ll hit too. Fireball will sail right on through.
jabs will usually net you more damage than close mp and the like on unconfirmed jumpins.
they are also safer on unconfirmed crossups because of the low hit and block stun of j.mk.
the jab is 1 frame faster than close mp and chains into similar damage to what you would get from a 1 frame link off close mp.
landing 1 jab guarantees a c.lk. which combos for 70 damage, the same as you would get from a medium hit.
Wow! Thanks a bunch - this is just what I was looking for.
I guess I’ll have to consider him like vega in short range then (though vega has NO real blockstrings).
AA focus is very gimmicky yeah, I agree. Gotta work on that c.hp. His neut jump HP seems to work well enough (aint no vega neut jumps but hey…).
As I mentioned you see me doing a lot of random c.mp’s since I’m not so used to his different combos yet (well, on a stick that is…) so I mess up a lot.
Wouldn’t c.hp > fb work to push them away? Or not enough block stun on c.hp? Generally on a jumpin (of which I do too much…) I just try for c jab c jab st lk st lk, since both of those are cancels they should be safe on block vs shoryukens even on block if you chain them tight enough, no? Or is there not enough block stun?
I’m working on the fireball, palm (in fact I’m looking for it every air fireball) but my execution on this stick is laughable so still miss some opportunities. It’s always HP palm isn’t it? (Instead of Mp palm as used in combos/after ex palm).
On what Kikuichi said - about lk tatsu as anti air and his other pokes… How reliable is LK tatsu? I know a trade leads into ultra, but how often does it happen? I’ll hit training mode and give it a spin.
What are his other pokes good for? St HK seems to give you some breathing room (as well as working as kara) but what about the rest? His sweep seems really solid (decent range and very good speed).
I got another question (a lot of question marks in this post…) How do punish from 1/2 character distances away? Say Ryu wiffs a lp shoryu. I dont have the reactions to dash in c.hp combo so I just sweep. I’ve been experimenting with stuff like max range c.lk xx hk tatsu but online it seems dodgy at best, at worst it’s… well you know.
Jagger is it possilbe you could elaborate a bit on FB pressure? I know it’s is (along with AA, punishment and general spacing…) the worst part of my game.
Uh and yeah, about spacing… What’s the optimal distance to stay away (of course, character dependant)? I like to stay so that a MP fireball will hit them if I decide to do it… 2.5 character distances away? Anything closer and I just eat random jumpins ;(.
Is there a link to Jugs’ matches at NEC this past weekend? I only caught a short part of the live stream where he was fairing pretty well against jwongs rufus…i belive jugs tied for 9th @ nec.
LP srk, sweep’s fine. Especially online, i got tired of what could go wrong if they do another immediately after the first one, so sweep became the default answer. And maybe Kiku has better luck, but i’ve never seen a reason to use lk tatsu as an AA. Too often it seems like they end up going over you during startup, which is great since the tatsu doesn’t seem to be able to actually hit behind you.
FP pressure just means establishing that they’re going to have to deal with them to get to you, not unlike what Sagats do. They’re like speedbumps. Even at fullscreen you tended to throw an MP after a single LP and then move on, or just throw one and stop.
People can mash SRK versus any blockstring. Gouken has ways to beat both reversals and mash jab.
Reversal:
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[]jab jab backdash, punish with cr.lk xx hk tatsu
[]jab jab EX Demon Flip, punish with whiff throw -> s.hp xx EX Palm or backthrow -> ultra
[]Versus three frame DPs you might be able to dodge a reversal 3-frame DP with jab jab cr.lk, I don’t know. I don’t know how long the SRK scoops down low.
[]cr.lp walk back s.mp.
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jab:
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[]Jab forward throw - this does beat even a perfectly timed three frame jab.
[]Jab low counter
[*]jab jab jab lp palm - this only works versus a 3-frame jab if they mistime it by one frame, but I’d expect anyone mashing jab to not be perfect.
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Don’t say stupid things like “Gouken has no way to beat a jab after his own cr.lp.” Gouken has a counter for everything the opponent can do, it’s just that the risk-reward isn’t favorable all the time. If you know what your opponent is going to do with Gouken you can destroy him. That’s the whole point of Gouken’s offense, pressure until they do something stupid and then punish them for it.
Seriously? Are you seriously arguing that blockstrings are bad because people can mash DP? Gouken is like the king of punishing stupid reversals, the risk/reward for DP is so in your favor it’s silly. And if you loosen up your blockstrings you can keep pressure up while still being safe to reversals. You can then be counter-hit or thrown out of your strings, but then you’re making them do things during your strings, which is precisely what you want them to do.
Cr.hp xx lp hado is a true blockstring, look at the frame data. People cannot reversal DP there at close range. And they have only two frames to grab you during s.mk xx lp hado. If they don’t time it right they eat the hado and a followup cr.lk xx hk tatsu. If you do s.hp xx lp hado it is impossible for them to throw you but it makes a nice tight frame trap. You have to analyze the purpose of strings. S.mk xx lp hado isn’t supposed to beat mash throw. It’s supposed to beat them doing a cr.lp, which it does unless they time it perfectly and it’s 3 frames. s.mk xx lp hado also lets you follow up with a sweep or cr.mp which is another frame trap in between the hado and cr.mp, only that one is tighter and basically can only be DP’d or backdashed.
Yes, then you can follow up with a second fireball or something like lp/mp palm or far s.hk
It is an airtight string up close.
Yes, that string is airtight and basically completely safe once you get them to block the cr.lp.
I don’t know why people suggest mp palm after EX Palm, hp palm works fine. Maybe it’s for oki reasons. But yeah, hp palm is your best bet. You just have to be very quick with it for it to combo. Some situations you need to use a lp palm because they weren’t very high up but they were close to you. It’s something you kinda feel out gradually.
lk tatsu is not a go-to AA. However, it does better damage, gets you a knockdown, and hits people more quickly than a cr.mk can (since you have to wait for them to start falling for cr.mk). It’s used basically for when they are jumping in too deep for a cr.hp. It usually doesn’t trade unless you do it late intentionally, but that’s risky because then it might just lose. If you do it earlier either you get reset in the air and only eat 100 damage instead of a whole jump-in combo. Also, there is a very small sweet spot where some jump-ins might beat both cr.mk and cr.hp. Lk tatsu fills that hole.
If you really want to combo into ultra off of an AA I suggest counter FADC ultra. They have to be high up though.
S.hp, s.hk, far s.mp, cr.mp, and cr.mk are all good pokes. Against people like Rufus who have trouble punishing a well-spaced lp palm it is a great poke. Hado is your best poke however.
How good is your reaction time? You can EX Palm -> palm a whiffed lp shoryu on reaction if you’re quick. I wouldn’t suggest using dash hk tatsu after the palm though because if you hit him weird with the palm the hk tatsu might not fully combo. Or you can just try a simple lp palm. Or like you said cr.lk xx hk tatsu is consistent. It’s actually faster than a sweep and does better damage. Obviously you can’t do it to punish things like sweeps because they’ll be crouching though.
Like I said before, Gouken’s AAs are really good. Unless they are jumping a fireball you can always AA them basically (and even if they jump over a fireball often you can parry or EX Tatsu to punish anyways). You shouldn’t worry too much about running away because Gouken sucks horribly if he gets stuck in the corner. Focus instead on using your fireball and pokes to push your opponent backwards or do something punishable. If you abuse Gouken’s fireball and use his pokes to keep them the hell off you Gouken can be effective at any range between 2/3rd screen and 1/3rd.
I would suggest that the very first thing you focus on with Gouken be anti-airing consistently every time. Then learn to punish with cr.hp xx EX Palm, backthrow -> ultra, and cr.lk xx hk tatsu. Then work on learning his poke game. Then the rest of your game will start falling into place.
Oh yeah I forgot to mention that EX Tatsu is a great AA too if you have meter to burn. Basically used at the same range as cr.hp.
None up yet, i think they will be put on frame-advantage.com though. He beat Wong the first match but Jwong’s adaptability really caught him the next match, then he dropped a combo into ultra that woulda prolonged the 3rd match to a final round. I will link them here when they are up.
But that is certainly hope for Gouken players everywhere, right ?
If they’re cornered, I anticipate when they’re going to jump. So I usually do air hado xx fadc. If they jump and get hit, free ultra. If they don’t jump, I usually grab. If I don’t have an ultra and they get hit, I do c. Fierce xx Demon flip fun.
When they’re not cornered, You can usually anticipate when they jump if you’re in a hadoken war, or if they jump the entire match, etc. I’m surprised that guy wasn’t as good as I thought he would be with 68k GP sheesh lol.