Could just be personal preference, though he did link close s.HP c.MP on a counter hit (I think it was). Personally I’m finding far s.HP to be an excellent zoning tool but I never see it used by other Goukens.
He obviously is a good player, but often I’m left wondering why he does what he does. There are several spots where he’s missing perfect opportunities for damage, and then he goes towards the end and gets some nasty corner combos (though he could have just done c.HP xx EX Palm and instead he does c.HP xx Hadou, FADC).
I can’t tell if he’s someone with just really good execution who plays Gouken on the side and doesn’t realize he’s missing opportunities or if the Japanese are just weird and do shit for no reason.
It looks like he’s looking for a potential punishing combo off of the back throw - s. hp. Also, he doesn’t want to lose his pressure. By hitting a tatsu, he loses rhythm and momentum because G4en gets tossed across the screen. Even if his combos are blocked after the backthrow - s.hp (or whatever), he is still in a good position to keep up the pokes, combos, pressure, whatever you want to call it. Maybe even another throw attempt. Who knows.
I guess sometimes guaranteed damage (backthrow - tatsu) is just as good as keeping the pressure on (backthrow - s.hp), as this Gouken shows. It obviously threw off this outstanding Gen player (not in a damage way, but in a geeze, I can’t get an attack in edge wise way). That’s just my two cents, anyway.
The FA -> Back Throw actually takes Gen OUT of the corner, which is why I was like “wat”. Had he just followed up the FA with HP xx EX Palm he would have gotten a full corner combo off, which ends in a mixup off of demon flip as well.
c.HP is -8 on block and -4 on hit.
s.HP is 0 on block and +4 on hit.
It seemed like he was using s.HP mostly because it is better for the Demon flip. I still don’t know what is actually better but I’ll have to try it out.
You’re looking at the wrong category. Since you’d cancel into demon flip, there’s no recovery, so the advantage/disadvantage is meaningless. What’s important is the block stun - of which c.hp has more.
The only reason I can think of is to mess up block/tech games, since s.hp would force a c.lk or throw whiff, and then punish it, but c.hp could do the same thing if timed properly, and it has a much better hitbox.
I think someone else was right in saying that this is a good player who saw some moves of gouken, so picked him up to give him a try. It’s impressive looking stuff, but unless theres some ‘three layers up’ level of mindgames that I’m missing, he’s making a lot of bad move choices.
I don’t think this was a gouken “give a try”, this guy knows what he is doing…
…i think this 2 players know each other very well, and mindgames they both do are really weird, (but they prove to be useful.
I LOVE the juggle > hp reset > demon flip things he do, impressive. I’ve have to learn from that (i mean, i copy his string until i’m prepared to do my own)…
I agree with you 100%. Im pretty sure it was you who started doing that a few months ago. I know ive been doing it forever. I should actually be on tongith if anyone wants a challenge.
But when have you seen much new on any character? Is it too early to say that the evolution of the characters are reaching their limits? Granted, a few will pull out something sooner or later, but it will come in smaller and smaller waves as time goes on. Gouken may be the first to peak, but I don’t see why the other characters won’t be far behind.
Is it also fair to assume that given time, someone will break out with Gouken (or any character) and re-invent him, so to speak? Or is that a stretch?
Has anyone found use for the close s. Mp to c. Lp link? It does the same damage as a close s. Fp so I don’t see a reason for it to be there. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
No, nothing. Its a useless option in my opinion. I substitute it for c or s.fp. That way I remove the potential for error and lost combos. I make my openings count and they often begin with c or s.fp
But I’m gonna try one more thing before I consider it useless, which is testing if there is a chance of continuing said link with a few jabs and then a c. lk XX Tatsu. (Little chance I will pull that off due average finger dexterity but I’ll try)
Might sound crazy, but since s. Mp to c. Lp XX Tatsu works (unlike any other link Gouken has to my knowledge), then why not the above?
Please excuse me if what I just posted is an abomination and cannot be done for sure. I’m kind of a SF newbie at this point.
Ya, it can’t be done. After landing a jab your best option is to tack on a couple more and then go into standing light kick, crouching middle punch, light punch fireball. Its a handy block string that manages a bit of damage and push away.
You can’t special cancel a chained LP or LK.
You can’t link c.LP to c.LP or to c.LK (c.LK actually comes out SLOWER than c.MP).
That’s why it doesn’t work. If it did you can gaurantee people would be doing it, but it can’t be done. It’s not a matter of finger dexterity, it’s a situation where it is impossible to do (unless you counterhit the c.LP, but counter hit only counts on the hit it countered on so s.MP c.LP would result in the c.LP never getting counterhit properties).
not that Faight is wrong with any of this, but just to elaborate:
s.lp, c.lp, and far s.lk can all ‘chain’ cancel into any lp or lk attack. That is. I can run a whole cancel chain of: c.lp xx c.lp xx s.lp xx s.lk xx c.lk.
Rule: if you canceled INTO a move this way, you cannot cancel OUT of it in any way OTHER than the same chain cancel.
That means:
c.lp xx c.lk is POSSIBLE
c.lk xx tatsu is POSSIBLE
c.lp xx c.lk xx tatsu is IMPOSSIBLE
Many characters get around this with links. For instance, Ryu does c.lp xx c.lp, c.mp. The c.mp is linked into - that is, it has 4 frame startup, and the c.lp gives +5 on hit. Since it wasn’t canceled into, it can be canceled out of, and Ryu can do c.lp xx c.lp, c.mp xx shoryuken.
You can even get clever with things like c.lp xx c.lp, c.lp xx tatsu
This means I do the c.lp’s with a specific timing to make sure the last one was linked into, not canceled into. To the untrained eye it may look just like 3 c.lp’s, but it has a specific pace to it.
Gouken… has none of these links. He has some links like c.hp, c.lp or crap like that, but NOTHING that comes off his chain cancels. This means the most damage he can get out of a c.lp is something like c.lp c.lp s.lk s.lk s.lk.
Ya, Gouken is a different kind of character. If he had links to specials he would probably be overpowered because they would have to fix his short/jab to be able to do it. Any combo starting from c.lp that contained an ex-palm would be too devastating. He is fairly well balanced as it is - just get used to throw tech a lot.
Characters like Bison absolutely rely on links (c.lk, c.lk xx lk scissor, etc) while Gouken has none - its an interesting contrast.
I’ve have to learn from that (i mean, i copy his string until i’m prepared to do my own)…
