So true this is so :annoy:
Using air parry to absorb a jumping attack only to have the other player reach the ground before me and molest me with a 3-4 frame hit confirm into a combo. This move is way too situational even when I use it at an opportune moment such as air parrying a AA normal or special.
I see no reason to increase his health or stun, I think way too many people try and suggest health or stun resilience increases. That is not that best way to go about balancing a character. Go to the frame data first.
Yeah I agree, fix the demon flip, tatsu, and better frame data with links and we can call it a day. Now if he could get some extra life/stun on top of that I won’t complain.
After playing with Gouken for a while I’m kinda on the fence with hit confirm. Hit confirm is kinda noobish in a sense b/c it can easily be abused all you have to do is get a character like Ken and throw a bunch of jabs to see when a couple land and go to srk. If not, you just stop your string… With Gouken you have to combo from the very beginning or you lose the ability to combo to a special . From a game play stand point I think it is fair, but it’s unfair in the light that EVERYONE else can do it and FADC to ultra by doing it. WTF???
I would also like to see some sort of standard on most safe on block moves in which they are all atleast -2 on special moves, why should someone be rewarded a frame advantage along with chip damage??? Or the special moves that give you a frame advantage shouldn’t grant any chip damage at all (or very very very little) b/c you were granted the frame advantage instead.
IMO specials should be used to punish, set up, and within combos and if you guess wrong you lose the frame advantage period. This would even out the game in the places where you have constant abuse of the system, eg. Sagats TK strings, Bisons lk Scissor kick loop, Balrogs Dash Punches, C Vipers jumping BK (omg that shit is like +8 at max LOL) Even though there are ways around these attacks which are very few. If this was the case a -2 TK would give the frame advantage back to a 3 or 4 frame jab but the Jab would still lose to reversal TU since it has invincibility at start up, and to reblance again, all characters should have 1-2 special moves that are invincible the first 1-2 frames of start up so they can still override normals at point blank range, so this would help even if you lost the frame advantage but wanted be risky and go for the reversal. However the special moves that are invincible at start up should have shitty recovery times so if you try to reverse and miss you open yourself up to severe punishment. Nothing irritates me more than someone trying to punish you but the move is completely safe and they recieve chip damage and frame advantage for doing it.
Today I got a message from a 5k CP Chun player that was something along the lines of “using a boss character newb” etc. I told this… thing… that Gouken has a terrible wake up game, and that Chun is above Gouken on the tier lists. They responded by calling me a weeaboo ****** and that the only reason Gouken is lower is because of the health, which I didn’t understand.
Anyways, I hope not all players think Gouken is a “boss character”.
That was just another Chun masher. You get used to them.
[quote=“Yusuka, post:44, topic:88264”]
Today I got a message from a 5k CP Chun player that was something along the lines of “using a boss character newb” etc. I told this… thing… that Gouken has a terrible wake up game, and that Chun is above Gouken on the tier lists. They responded by calling me a weeaboo ****** and that the only reason Gouken is lower is because of the health, which I didn’t understand.
If Gouken had better frame data and viable links / 2 in 1’s, then yeah he would be a boss character, but at this point, I’m just used not having certain shit and it’s not a big deal anymore. Goukens like the old verison of Rick Ross… BOSS.
AND I HATE THE OVERLAP OF KONGO AND TATSU!!!:annoy::annoy::annoy:
I can understand the hate on this, but I gotten saved so many times by this that I don’t really mind. Sometimes I want to do EX Tatsu and EX Kongo comes out and I managed to counter a low hit, or viceversa. Maybe I’m just lucky on that.
eh. Even if the overlap was removed, I don’t think I would use his tatsu much for an anti-air when high counter, c.fp, and c.mk have done the job 95% of the time. Am I missing an advantage it has?
I’d feel more inclined to use it outside of combos if it was way faster and had SRK properties (I know, I know). But getting thrown out of it, missing crouching opponents… might as well whiff a counter, lol.
They ought to turn his regular tatsu closer to the EX version, at least. air EX tatsu is blazingly fast as an escape tool. I love it.
When I first dabbled with Gouken, I thought his tatsu was his version of the dragon punch, haha.
I never do EX Tatsu as anti-air, only in rare occasions. But I do EX Tatsu a lot in wake-ups and during some characters rush in pressure, it works great since its fast and most of the people don’t expect it, ex: Cross up Giefs/Gens.
Same here, I break it out as a wakeup desperation move. Though risky, a lot of people do not expect it, it seems.
The air EX tatsu has some cool properties. You can change its direction slightly by tapping forward or backwards while in air. I remember a few times I managed to fool some opponents who thought I was escaping, and right when they jumped (to chase me) I changed direction with the EX tatsu to score a hit. Unusually specific (and lucky as hell) situation, but it worked.
lk. tatsu trades into hk tatsu or ultra every time.
I have notice that it works great against people who want to cross over you in the corner, it usually gets them when they are in the air behind you. Great way to get distance from them and scape from corner if you are in the losing situation.
Raun: That’s very different then, lol. Thanks for the tip. (Plus the FADC > Ultra is a possibility here without worrying if the opponent is crouching)
Just had a throw whiff from distance, and had the whiff be punished with… a backthrow. Non-Kara, no walkup. Fucking joke of a match with a random Gouken anyway (DERP, non-comboed senkus, plan your game around what a dipshit i am!), but that really tops it.
I think that has happened to us all. I’ve had some of my throws whiff and has been punished with some of every damn thing… LOL. It sucks but I’m glad the throw is only 3 frames, I tend to walk throw a hell of alot more now after a couple of Vortex set ups, but when it whiffs it sucks plus we use Gouken and the 3 frame throw is the best thing we got up close. Srks, Ultras, and command grabs can beat it but even in those cases they have to guess right and if they guess wrong it’s our advantage.
But the throws seems to mainly whiff on crouching opponents, I’m not sure if they crouch as to try to throw or what but whatever it is, it sucks ass.
That was the real mindfuck about the situation, he was standing. Like an idiot. If i’d thrown out a poke it would’ve hit.
I just tested it because it was really pissing me off. Gouken vs. Gouken, you can have your big toe overlap the other guy’s and still whiff a throw. In fact, that’s the absolute closest you can get and still miss, so even a pixel past that puts you in throw range. The scrub threw my throw whiff recovery frames hitbox. Un-fucking-believable.
Winning with Gouken is satisfying – his lack of tools makes the win really tasty.
What I’m hating: lack of good pokes and getting punished by those with good pokes. I can have one hell of a time with Ryu and Rog with their poke mixup – its really frustrating NOT having a goto move like other shotos with shoryuken.
Kongo isn’t a good option: requires guess work on high/low, susceptible to grabs, gives a lot of grey damage and isn’t consistent against crossups. If it was a good option, Gouken would instantly move up the ranks a bit. Maybe make the LP palm dash an immediate hit like a shoryuken? Give move the invincible frames for palm dash?
Gouken needs a few tweaks and its very annoying.
I feel your pain. Gouken doesn’t have a easy a time in the poke/footsie game, especially against some characters. However, I’ve been playing a lot with a friend who uses Akuma and Rog and I’ve started to figure out how to be more successful with his pokes.
The one advantage you have is that characters with really good pokes tend to use them a lot and in a very systematic way. They ram out the same pokes at the same time and spacing quite often. It’s as if they’re taunting you and saying “Hey fool, I’m gonna go my stand roundhouse again now. What are you gonna do about it?”. It’s this predictability that gives you your openings. You have two ways to counter these moves:
-
Predict and counter poke early: Some moves can only be countered this way since blocking them puts you into too much stun. Akuma’s standing roundhouse is a good example. If you KNOW it’s coming, then your standing MK will beat it during it’s startup if you time it right.
-
Make it whiff and punish: Many people throw out tons of really good pokes to form a shield around them. Balrog is ridiculous at this. They do their pokes at such a spacing that if you do nothing it whiffs, but if you do ANYTHING at the same time it’ll beat your move. However, if you do a move JUST AFTER they do their move then you can punish their current move during its recovery or the next move they spam out during it’s startup. Some good counter pokes to use here are cr.MP, cr.LK, cr.HK, although most moves can have it purpose. It’s all situational.
These certainly aren’t new tactics. They are about as old-school as you can get. But I have really started to appreciate their worth since Gouken doesn’t have a lot of high-priority moves to fall back on. If you’re not doing this a lot already, try to work these tactics into your game more. Hopefully it’ll help!
Now for my frustration: Using the above tactics online is even tougher than doing it offline. I really hope the netcode is better in super…
Akuma’s poke game is pretty much the shoto pokes for LP, then he has a great HK poke that covers so much distance. The c.LP pokes are shoto annoying (as in, it sets up a great mixup with grab), but nothing like Rog (ihmo).
Rog is horrid: LP dash is basically safe. It’s Rog’s goto special attack and Gouken has almost nothing that will punish it. If I was a Ryu/Ken/Cammy/Akuma/Sagat – toss their legit shoryuken move and Rog is my ass. As Gouken? I can’t punish when I block! If you try to low counter Rog’s consistent c.LP follow up, it never seems fast enough and now I’m eating a meaty chain from that great poke. At best: EX tatsu. We all know how well that move gets punished, so it’s pretty rare I’ll even try to toss it against a LP dashing Rog.
You also mention netcode: that has caused me so many misses with backtoss -> ultra, it’s HIGHLY annoying. Too soon? No meaty ultra. Too late? Now I’m eating a BnB into ultra.
One of my biggest frustrations is when I’m online (shock!) and my crossup MK > cs.HP > LP GoHadouken > cr.HK, or cs.HP to any other mixup fails because of lag or other random-ness. This is especially horrid against Gief, damn SPD knocking me out of a “blockstring.”