Yes and no.
The casual 1 hit j.MP into a EX tatsu works, of course. That is not the mystery.
And no: 2 hit j.MP juggle into Ultra 1 and both versions of tatsu works. But… here comes the mystery part… they need very special conditions.
I do often the backthrow 1 hit j.MP into a c.RH so I know how this work and can use it.
Trade excluded. I mean the raw 2 j.MP. I suppose “figured” out that these “conditions” are, that you have to connect the j.MP in the uprising jump motion and until he reaches his highest point of jump. It def. not connect on a falling opponent, so far i know and tested.
The “mystery” is… that it is not garantued that the FULL Tatsu after juggle works, sometimes it catches the oppnent strange or late and does not the full damage.
The Ultra whiffs sometimes AND if it connects, it is also not garantueed that the full Ultra 1 connects.
It’s a gamble. You have to do luck or find out the certain conditions when it connects full and when not. That is “my” “actual” understanding how it works.
I did it several times in train mode and in a game. First in a match. That’s why I was so curious about I could 2 hit j.MP AND light Tatsus.
Then I tested other Tatsus. They worked but very strange. Of course I tried to combo into Ultra 1 … and it connected!
But I spent only 20 minutes on it “how it works”. There seems to be a 2nd condition and I guess this is the angle.
I can offer a proof but I need to make a new account and so on. If you really would like to see it and bring some time with you.
I use it… but in with AE (PC version) you can j.MP and combo into air tatsu, which works a much better…
But it isn’t the same… you kick your opponent across the screen.
But… to be honestly… I already saw “this” in my early SF4 Gouken days…
Bullcat did this already. So it could be “no” big deal. But the combo into tatsu could be new…
No problem. Look at the proof video or feel free to check it for yourself.
s.MK catches more the close jump ins in my opinion. But I’m also very familiar with the ant air c.FIERCE. I don’t trust the c.MK as a anti air… but to be honestly: I don’t use it actually and haven’t much experiences with it in matches. Just experimented with it the train mode.
May I train more to escape with the FDCA out of it or (I guess as you mentioned it before) double tap forward to the opponent to connect a st.HK, but it’s risky.
I suppose to stop a cross up with a hadou is difficult. Didn’t try it… I just have to keep on practising, find more block strings and mix up more
Just restating some facts:
fj/bj.MP has 2 hits out of 4 active frames: 1st 2 active frames belongs to the 1st hit, and the latter belongs to the 2nd.
1st hit of j.MP puts the airborne opponent in juggle state. You can follow-up with anything.
2nd hit of j.MP puts the airborne opponent in a “knockdown” state. You can follow-up with moves that have pursuit property.
The 1st hit of U1 and tatsu do not have pursuit property. Their 2nd hit and onward have pursuit property.
Since U1 has start-up of 11f, and the 1st hit has 2 active frames, you can consider U1 equal to having 13f start-up when comboing from 2-hit j.MP (or simply from 2nd hit of j.MP), which makes the combo harder.
Juggle state shows that any hit past u1’s 1st hit will tag opponents off 2 hit j mp. It’s not mysterious conditions, just fairly hard to time because of how fast the opponent falls.
BUT what Im curious about is you claiming that Tatsu hits as well. I would figure that its roughly the same where its only after the first hit that tatsu would tag someone after 2 hit j mp. But tatsu is way too slow for that to happen. Do you have a video where you hit it with tatsu?
Also, I hit J.mp - tatsu a lot. Its fuckin great for an a2a w/ no meter. Its hard to hit all the time if you hit j mp deep because the 2nd hit comes so fast its hard to get the cancel.
I would dare guess that he did a j.MP 2 hits then connected with LK tatsu, starting at 2nd hit (4 hit combo!), like you mentioned in your post. LK one is faster than expected.
Spending 15 minutes trying to find the video someone made months ago of the 2 hit j.mp tatsu, only to find he removed the video. Grrr. As the list shows, any strength of tatsu can connect after the j.mp. It seems to connect easier when Gouken is just on his way down from a jump and the opponent is about to reach his peak. And when you jump from the furthest away j.mp would connect.
@street11 Interesting facts. Actually, I’m not really using the frame data of Gouken, so this more the theoretical part of sf. I do a lot of “just do it” practice with the dummy, reproduce certain situation of a match. I feel comfortable with it. When I started 3rd Strike and SF4 I did to much of the theoretical thing - and wasn’t satisfied with it.
"2nd hit of j.MP puts the airborne opponent in a knockdown"
That means all variation of knockdown moves will connect? Like, Palm, c.RH, standing j.HP, j.HP etc. etc?
I just knew the jumped RH after a 2 hit j.MP
"Since U1 has start-up of 11f, and the 1st hit has 2 active frames, you can consider U1 equal to having 13f start-up when comboing from 2-hit j.MP (or simply from 2nd hit of j.MP), which makes the combo harder."
This is harder to understand. Yes it’s harder to connect. But as I mentioned (in my words without technical understanding) under certain conditions it’s easier to get it connected with full U1 damage.
@AmigoOne At this moment - and my opinion - it depends more on in which angle the opponent falls and when did you hit 'em - as I described.
So far I tested all versions of tatsu hit after a 2 hit j.MP. EX Tatsu gets a full connects. Other versions only get 1-2 hit chance. But also the EX Tatsu can lose the grid of the combo and the opponent falls to the ground.
Just made some really quick video “wanted and unwanted” variations of 2 hit j.MP combos into tatsus and ultra1
At 0:22 you can see the mentioned 2hit j.MP into full connected (EX) Tatsu.
This video doesn’t demonstrate the 2 hit j.MP into a 2 hit LK Tatsu - but it works and do a 4 hit combo - of course.
Great guide @phunkism. Helpful stuff.
So, this is why I stick with Gouken… I really like his huge and interesting ways of comb’ilities…
Even I could witch to other Chars and could earn more wins.
That’s totally NOT a full hit EX tatsu, it misses the first hit. All tatsus can hit from the 2nd hit and on from a 2 hit j.mp.
Use cr.mk, it stuffs things cr.hp might not such as shoto jumping lk. I never dash and do st.HK btw. I do st.HK when they do two or three jabs and then try to jump in on my head. If someone is out in front of me I use EX tatsu, you can’t beat 200 damage and throwing them to the other side of the screen.
Not “literally” not “full” in a term of all hits. Rather full in the meaning of “it connects” and keeps connecting to the tatsu… that was not self-evident.
Not what I so far tested. Some tatsus have a better chance to work than other…
Theoretically all tatsus works. Theoretically. How about in a working game practice? Can some one make a tutorial or a more practical video about this?
I would appreciate that.
Only moves with pursuit properties -> f/bj.HK and nj.HP connects after a “knockdown state”, other than the U1 and tatsu I already mentioned + U2 + Super (from 2nd hit) + f/bj.MP (2nd hit).
I think there was a miscommunication with the word “full”. I was understanding that as “all hits”, and I’m sure some other people did as well.
I personally consider 2 hit j.MP -> LK tatsu from 2nd hit to be pretty practical against characters with high and floaty jumps such as Bison and Chun-Li (+ they cannot change their jump arc in the middle).
Well, since playing Gouken since SF4’s arrival, and having grown accustomed to always buffering a Forward input before the Tatsu, it’s now handicapping me as I don’t get the Tatsu out as early as I otherwise could have, if I didn’t try to buffer Forward first.
Now I’m thinking that the game has actually managed to traumatize me.
Shouldn’t work the palm after a knockout state? Because he also knocks down? The tatsu seems to be the only special move that could connects.
Yes I suppose there was kinda miscommunication with the term.
I personally try to figure out the 2 hit j.MP into ultra 1 as additional option. The EX tatsu variation is, of course like the ultra, very risky but compared to the damage equal risk an option - in my opinion.
But actually… I made today two games… 1 vs the #1 evil ryu player… obviously the luck wasn’t on my side after I opend the first game today,
the other one vs a not good vega player.
In both games I lost… “ok” actually I don’t know the evil ryu match up, but it was a massacre and I always reacted a second to late… “and” I guess, like many match ups, it should not be in my favour.
Gouken is so annoying slow… I know (wayne whyne etc.)
The vega game was unfortunately… I reacted totally wrong. Especially I should had to know what to do… because I can ‘play’ charge and motion classes aswell but I wasn’t familiar with the vega vs gouken match up. 2000+ BP to reach is ‘easy’. But to get familiar with a (bad?!) match up you have try it over and over again.
GKN should get a ‘almighty’ SRK and all sorrows should be history. Irony included.
Next time vega players… maybe next time.
There are no mysteries here. It’s all in the frame data. There is nothing to figure out. If you get the first hit of j.mp but not the second (such as proper timing after a backthrow) anything in his repertoire will connect provided you time it correctly (assuming there is ample time to connect).
If you get the full 2 hit j.mp only certain things can connect. There were stated above in street11’s post. No mysteries. If you want to learn why something can follow up and why others can’t, I suggest reading up on it.
Ya, I’m done with the yun matchup. Fuck that noise.
For a while I used to just disgruntingly play the match while berating them over the mic for the whole time for their selection of such a shitty character. And while that gave me some temporary relief from the annoyance, it just ended up making me angry. So now when somebody picks yun and i just close the game and restart.
I just don’t need that shit in my enjoyment of the game. I have no plans on going to any tournaments, so I don’t see why my personal copy of the game should include that broken piece of shit.