Get Ready! The New Match-Up Thread

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
21

Ken’s step kick isn’t the problem, nor is Ken himself. His slower walkspeed and his reliance on step kick to get anything going against Yun makes his game play that much predictable which is why many Ken players try to do something they rarely do: zone. They know that if they go head first against Yun his dive kick and neutral jump will beat them out. I feel Ken’s not the problem here.

If you vsed any high-level Ryus you’ll know what i’m talking about. Heck, even Air said this match up was in Ryu’s favor in vanilla AE, and now with this patch, the match-up got worse as Ryu’s fireball game got that much stronger as well as his anti-air/get off me move in his fierce dp, all the while Yun lost damage, set up, and anti-fireball techniques…

I can make a series of good reads and have Ryu almost dead but 1 reversal-counter hit fierce dp and a dp fadc into ultra evens it up just like that, not to mention you’re GOING TO take damage trying to get in. Yun just cannot win in a dirty, messy slug-fest anymore against Ryu. Also, the delayed mk dk only works if they do the dp motion correctly by starting standing up first, but if they just mash crouching 3-2-3-2 it will auto correct and hit the mk dk. The only way to 100% make it whiff is the lk dk.

I agree with you though, that the match-up are winnable to the degree being almost even (5.5-4.5 like i said), but it takes more smart reads and better play from Yun overall against Ryu who can afford to play a bit retarded and risky, whereas we can’t.

22

Hmm, I’m sitting in training room and my delayed mk dk makes mash dp whiff.

I agree with you saying that the Yun player has to be on point. Punishing a fireball shoulder or n.j. Hk dk can be pretty tough but it’s not like Yun can’t deal high dmg on a good read. Yun could use U2 or mp shoulder FADC U1 as a fireball punish for a ton of dmg, If you hit Ryu crouching you can deal high dmg + tons of stun and you can ultra or ex dp through cr.mk xx hado if you are further away.

No way that Ryu beat vanilla AE Yun. I wouldn’t take anything serious from Air, considering how his perception of matchups tend to be messed up(Ryu bottom tier?!).

23

lol, that’s true, not to mention he’s not that good tbh lolololol.

24

I disagree with most of the stuff being said.

fst.HK, LP Lunge is pretty easy for me to do against Ryu. I was actually doing fst.HK trades into LP Lunge when keeping my friend cornered. Now, the Ultra is a different story (lol that shit is annoyingly tight…) His fireball game is something of a problem, but I think people just gotta explore their dive kick game a little bit more. You can DK into MP Shoulder / EX Shoulder range without too much trouble, and doing infrequent neutral jumps to discourage anticipation DP basically force Ryu into the corner if your footsies are on point. Maybe it’s just me, but I actually feel that MP Shoulder is easier to punish fireballs with than EX Shoulder is. For whatever reason, I get counter hit out of EX Shoulder more often. Ground game is annoying thanks to Ryu’s buffs and Yun’s nerfs, but this looks like a case of people wanting to play DK then ignore Yun’s fst.LK. It’s an easy 1f link confirm at closer ranges (st.LK, st.LK) into LP Lunge that stuffs Ryu’s cr.MK, and if you’re lazy, you can just buffer LP Shoulder for chip randomly until he has super, or buffer EX Shoulder / LP Lunge for some damage into a techable KD + corner push at long distance. Your cr.MK will stuff his cr.MK at max range too, but st.LK is a more attractive option with it’s fast start up and recovery. cr.MP is a problem button, but I think this is a problem button for most characters…stupid thing. You can still use st.MP, but you have to be a lot more careful with it. It’s true that Ryu is going to win in a slug fest (wtf he hits hard now), but you can definitely make him respect your DKs. I don’t know about the set ups listed here, but I know there are a few that (when done right) will make DP whiff. If you wanna go the easy route, play around with HK DK. Doing fake dive kicks or real near perfect ones after a fw throw is still a viable option, though the set ups are a little different (but better imo, since you can build meter with them…)

Anyway, st.LK, I think is what most people aren’t paying attention to. The +2 on block is very nice and it’s an awesome tool once you grind out the hit confirm at close range. Works extremely well with frame traps at a distance too.

Suddenly feeling lazy so I’ll just end with Ken thought. I think Ken’s step kick is a problem because of his offensive options and his ability to randomly switch to a zoning style.

25

fsk.hk trades into lp lunge is easy but without it trading it’s been difficult for me for some odd reasons :frowning:

strangely though Breaker, I found it A LOT easier to connect the ultra after though… I get the ultra more consistently than the lunge.

Also, the buff on Yun’s fst.lk is really good like u said which not many have discussed. It’s such a good tool in footsie match like this. I end a lot of my blockstrings with fst.lk pressure and frame trap with fst.mp. 3f gap frame trap from such far range does true wonders against poke/footsie characters. Also, his cr.mp isn’t that bad. You can punish it with neutral jump lk a lot of the times as well as stuffing it/trading with it with fst.hk.

Ken’s step kick would be a problem if Yun had no option against it. We have plenty. Every time Ken does a step kick it puts him right in our dive kick range. Everytime I block a step kick i turn it into a guessing game, all of which are in my favor i believe. If he does it from a far and wants to catch me whiffing a poke with his own cr.mk, I just try to neutral jump dive kick. If he wants to step kick again any button will stuff it. If he jumps at me and i neutral jump usually i can stuff it with fierce.

The only time Ken’s step kick becomes a problem is when he has 2 meters so he can play stupid with step kicks lolol. Even then, backdashing or just blocking after a stepkick isn’t too bad. Most of the time it’s the best option since Yun can take up space so quick.

26

Yeah I’m basically thinking of Ken with two bars. That’s when I get annoyed by him :frowning:

The whiff dive kick / real dive kick set up - Fw Throw ~ LP Shoulder ~ jump towards opponent, MK Dive kick

early = whiff (safe from 3f DP, forgot to test with Super but probably not)
late = hits their knees

27

can someone briefly go over the claw match-up ? thanks

28

Ex shoulder isn’t much better than mp shoulder. It has better range but it seems to extend the hitbox so far that the extra speed doesn’t help avoiding fireballs any better than mp shoulder. shoulder is a pretty mediocre tool overall and it seems just better to neutral jump dk to get past fireballs :/.

It seems that we overall agree on the Ryu/Ken matchups being manageable. Is there anything else that could be said?

29

Not much. Both of them should be up by end of the week, if not sooner. i’ll go with 5.5-4.5 against Ryu and 5-5 with Ken.

Also, against claw cheery+ just dive kick the hell out of him in block strings, because most claws likes to mash against Yun as soon as we get into his jab range but dive kick will teach him not to mash in which then you can go for your frame traps, mix ups, and etc.

30

I wasn’t sure if this was common knowledge or not, but EX Dash Punch > U1 still works on Dee Jay, Cammy, Balrog, and Dhalsim.

31

Yup and rose

32

I thought palms weren’t comboable? How is Kaz employing so many in that match against Abel without being punished?

33

because he mixes it up with fake palms and shoulders. It also punishes any mashing from abel at the distance where he cancels it into the palm, not to mention it will stuff abel’s ex-cod attempt during Yun’s block strings.

34

Ryu is up. I’ll update further with Breaker’s whiff dp set up and other whiff-dp set up after our front throw as well as with CST combos.

Speaking of CST, i found that ending your combo with fst.lk xx heavy upkicks does more damage than fst.mp xx medium upkicks.

For example, after command grab, cr.mp, fst.lk xx heavy upkicks does more dmg than cr.mp, fst.mp xx medium upkicks, as well as other bnb combos against Ryu that ends with fst.mp xx m.upkicks because of whiffing h.upkick issue.

Also, Ken should be up within couple days or even today, as Ken is pretty much slower Ryu with stepkick, kara grab, and worse fireball zoning rofl.

35

For Yun vs. Yun mirror, crouching fierce BLOWS UP dive kick. I’ll test this for vs. Yang and Rufus.

36

Nice find on st.lk xx connecting on standing Ryu/Ken! Here’s my stuff.

Ryu/Ken

Safe jumps

Fwd throw, Fwd jump x2, delayed mk dk

If done correctly makes all dps and ultras whiff completely. If you’ve conditioned your opponent you could fwd jump x2, cr.lk as you land to mix up.

Mk dp quickst, neutral empty jump
Dp gets blocked in time. Since you aren’t actually doing a jumpin it’s not a real safe jump. Be wary of wake up throw! You could go for a n.j mk as a mix up but this gets beat by Shoto dp.

Combos
Standing
Jab x2, cr.mp, st.mk xx mk dp
Cr.mp x2, st.mp xx hk dp

Crouching
Jab x, cr.mp, st.mp xx hk dp
Cr.mp x3, cr.mk xx mp lunge

Other notes
After any kd, If you aim your lk dk precisely against the back of the head non-meaty you can actually beat dps or make them whiff. This won’t lead into a combo but is useful if you think your opponent is going to wake up dp and FADC.

37

This works against Guy’s elbow attack and I personally use it since its pretty low risk if Guy does the elbow early to bait your AA dp.

38

Before I forget, random notes I had in my old notepad on Ryu:

Mid Fw Throw ~ dash forward ~ dash forward ~ cst.MP ~ jump over opponent
Slightly delayed LK Dive kick will cross them up and avoid reversals.
Slightly delayed MK Dive kick will cross them up and avoid reversals.
HK Dive kick at peak will not cross them up unless they crouch and will avoid reversals.

Mid Fw Throw ~ LP Lunge ~ *
fst.MP, jump towards opponent, MK Dive kick quickly to avoid reversals. Messing up the timing will make it blockable both ways and won’t avoid reversals.

MK Kicks ~ neutral jump
MK Dive kick just before peak to sometimes cross them up but always avoid reversals.

HK Kicks ~ walk back 1.5 steps ~ jump towards opponent
HK Dive kick quickly to avoid reversals. Messing up the timing will screw you over if they’re mashing and chances are they can block both ways.

I wish I had a better way to describe “when to dive kick.” Oh well, some lab work will produce results.
probably.

Oh and then there was this stuff, which was just sitting in the bottom under Lab.

EX Lunge
0 or +1 at roughly 2 full squares. Cannot confirm into Ultra 1 without roughly 3 full squares. I say roughly because some characters hit boxes are different, so it’s hard to tell the exact distance (back dash twice and it’ll be 0 to +1 against a cornered Chun, while it’ll be -1 against a cornered Ryu.)
May be possible to combo into Ultra at 2 full squares, but the timing is ridiculously tight on most characters if it is.

  • At 2.5SQ+, EX Lunge, Ultra 1 works anywhere.

Finally, I know I had this written down somewhere, but I can’t find it…so, off the top of my head:
Fw Throw ~ dash forward ~ dash forward ~ Fake Palm ~ delay crouch tech with cr.MP
Fw Throw ~ dash forward ~ dash forward ~ slight pause ~ Palm
Fw Throw ~ dash forward ~ dash forward ~ Fake Palm ~ slight pause ~ Command grabI thiiiiink I was using these to fake out my friend who likes to “just do it” once I start getting in his head. Basically, the first one will catch throws, block reversal DP, or do cr.MP. The second one will get caught by DPs but will cause decent chip or catch them pressing buttons. Sometimes it’ll trade in your favor. Third one is kinda self explanatory, though it doesn’t work too well if they’re not respecting your frame traps (slight pause means meaty = up to human error.)

39

Also id like to add foward throw > backdash > hp lunge > foward jump lk dive kick.

This will pretty much either stuff everything or avoid any wake up reversals, can use it pretty much as a safe jump.

Works on all shotos, Twins, guile, gen, juri, dictator (avoids ex psycho), abel, blanka, honda (avoids all his wake up specials), Ibuki, dudley, el fuerte, claw, hakan, Makoto

Needs more testing characters i know it doesnt work on are, Sagat, Fei Long, Chun Li (Ex Spinning bird kick(, Cammy, Guy (ex tatsu), Adon, Boxer, Seth, Sakura (Ex shouken), Rose (Ex soul spiral), Rufus (Ex Messiah), Zangief, Cviper, T.hawk, Cody (Ex Zonk), Deejay, Gouken, Dhalsim (super & ex up flame)

Characters listed with ex moves just mean you can use the setup if they dont have any meter.

40

t’s done… 36 more characters to go LAWL.

gods help me.

at least the good news is that i can confidently say i know the match-ups in-depth for about half the cast…