i personally think thats easier said than done… in addition to what i already said, a good fuerte can bait the living crap out of gen’s unsafe special/super/ultra moves… and here comes the fierce loop
I’m below scrub level - but yeah, that fat fuck haunts my nightmares. A couple of trades and Gen’s on lifesupport.
Ibuki, Viper and Cammy are hard for me to - but I don’t know the matchups enough and really have trouble with good offensive rushdown players. One knockdown and I’m in deep trouble.
5/5 against chun li…wow you’re good because I’ve always thought chun li footsies are better than gen but thats my opinion
for me its more like 6/4 or even 7/3 and we’re talking about those good chun li right?
i never understood why anyone would think chun had better footsies. her two longer reaching heavy normals, and her standing mp get killed by low foward hands, and sweep. chuns actually have some problems with shoto low foward, and ours serves simialar offensive purposes.
you just have to get used to making her toss out the long ranged ones, and whiff punnishing. i think they are even as far as footsie tools go, and it boils down to who uses their tools more effectively
I’m sure if you have CPU’s simulate Chun vs. Gen; Chun would definitely win. Chun’s walk speed is stupid fast; I play my homie Kelvin, when I do a jump in, he walks backwards, then walks forward and grabs me -_-". Also her sweep is damn fast.
But if it were me playing, again I feel that it’s 5-5 still
Against Fuerte, it is a pretty stupid matchup because it’s so random. But like Vanesco said, make him respect you by going random, random dp’s? Why not?
Also only 1 of his running attack things beat your FA, the grab one. All the other ones you can just FA out of it. Since the match up is so random, it’s still 5-5 cause you can random him yourself. Also Fuerte’s love doing the wall jump, they always do one in at least 1 match, so get ready to Crane U1 him!
For the Ibuki matchup
I recently inputted my matchup experience vs. Ibuki because my friend that I play against all the time uses Ibuki, and I’m 90% confident in that matchup, so please check it out in the matchups thread
well against your focus he can also start doing his “chest” move (quesadilla bomb) stopping his command run in 3 frames and you cant react if your focusing --> breaks armor and knocks down…
i’ve experienced that on MANY occasions after they got focus’d a couple times
and in addiction, as you said, he has the run > grab move
from what i’ve red in the fuerte’s section… THEY said they have problems getting in if the opponent does defensive back jump moves while fuerte is approaching… of course try not to get cornered in 5 seconds D:
about ibuki and FASC… i never really practice on that, but i should… how do you do it? i’ve been trying the LP+MP+MK~HP way… but thats still really difficult 
Against fuerte: Mash U1 MANTIS during run-stop-fierce. If they drop combo, they eat big damage. If they mix it up with c.lk reset, big damage. If they go for tortilla reset or bodysplash, they get hit with ultra or you get out of corner.
Because Fuerte’s jumps are so strange and his specials that put him in the air make him land quickly, I wouldn’t rely on Crane U1. I’d only do Crane U1 as AA if I see him doing wall jumps.
It’s very important to make Fuerte respect Gekiro. If you don’t, he’ll be flopping all over you. I don’t even use super in this matchup because his spacing keeps him outside of s.mk range (if they know what they’re doing) and allows them to react to most of Gen’s pokes with ex run-slide or run-back-tortilla. Use the cross-DP method to make sure EX Gekiro hits cross-up body splashes (if shotos can, why can’t we?)
Try not to jump in at him because you’ll get EX Guacamole or tortilla’d. Don’t be afraid to use focus to move. Play fuertes until you can tell the difference between his run-command throw and run-body splash. If it’s a non-crossup body splash and you hit FA, free Mantis U1. If it’s cross-up, dash back and sweep or do whatever. If it’s a throw, react and backdash so you’re airborne during grab window.
Quesadilla is garbage. No Fuerte I’ve ever played (I play tournament level players) keeps Quesadilla charged unless you’ve been hitting them with FA frequently. Just don’t let them train you not to focus if they hit you with it once, and don’t throw focuses except on reaction to fuerte going in air. The move is not something to be afraid of.
The matchup takes a lot of practice and fast reactions. Don’t be afraid to overhead him->throw since when you get in close they like to turtle up. Don’t non-safe jump on him when he has meter. Fuerte has no viable reversal, his DP only gives him an escape (and this is getting nerfed in AE), he can tortilla on reaction to tick throw attempts. Umm… not sure what else. I’d say this is a 5-5.
the most annoying thing to me is when they do EX run > tortilla on their wakeup… i really dont know how to deal with that
Chun DOES win in footsies. Shotos have trouble with HER st.mp. The only time the low forward wins is if it was pressed first, which is hard because since her st.mp goes so far it either means you have to walk up(and stop blocking) or stick it out so her st.mp runs into it, which means you’re whiffing a low forward which can promptly get swept on reaction.
Chun does win the gen/chun battle because her footsies are better than gens and she also does more damage. She can zone you out as well if she wants. She can also abuse her st.mp much more than your st.mk hands since it doesn’t push back so far and leaves her at frame advantage on block.
Whiff punishing isn’t a strategy you can rely on in this match because chun doesn’t have to whiff any buttons. There really isn’t any reason for her to do so because her long ranged ones.
The weakness in chun’s footsies is that her st.mp is 7 frames and her cr.hk is 6. Meaning 1 that your st.mk is faster. But more importantly, both moves also have quite a bit of recovery on them and can be focused quite well. So my advice is to figure out how to work focus into your footsies. I’m not talking about trying to go for the gold and getting that level 2(unless you focus the sweep, then go for it duder!) but just using it as a poke because most likely if you focus the st.mp you’re not going to get the crumple. Yeah it’s not a crumple but you just got what 70 dmg? That’s a poke.
Bison is in no way gen’s favor. Gen doesn’t have anything to compete with Bison’s cr.lk. This match-up is clearly 6-4. Gen can compete everywhere except for the pressure game. He can do the footsies and the damage that bison does but very obviously loses in the pressure. Bison has multiple ways to get out of pressure while gen has 1. Pretty much making option selecting hard against a good bison because you don’t just win like you do with a lot of other characters. You have to guess what he is going to try and get away with.
Gen loses against cammy because of the pressure game as well. But he also loses in damage, setups, and stun. Gen wins in footsies but it’s not so much so to change the game. Her normals are slower but they’ve got a good hitbox and she’s got a good walkspeed. She’s basically a better rufus in this game.
Fuerte will wreck your shit if you play a smart one. Do you think TKD is going to get hit by your gekiros and ultras? You’re going to need more than that to beat a good fuerte and gen doesn’t really have the right tools for it in this game(as opposed to vanilla where an untechable knockdown followed every mk hands and you had a better answer for his mix up game). Fuerte doesn’t care about footsies and that’s about all gen has got.
Anyways don’t ever fucking mention “punish ultra” or “bait dp” in a match up discussion. It sounds like you’re playing scrubs. The only time you should be thinking “bait dp” is if you know they’re going to dp if you do “X”, it’s not a part of match-up discussion. I’m sorry for the haterade but don’t be stupid.
Grab, st.mp>neutral jump combo.
A bit of advice for match-up discussion. Match-up discussion is for discussing the strengths and weaknesses of your character against the strengths and weaknesses of your opponent’s character. Play style has no input here. Saying “Punish Ultra” doesn’t further the discussion and knowledge of the match-up. It’s nothing that your character has over another character, every character can punish Cammy’s ultra. That’s neither a strengths of a weakness of either character. There is no reason for you to even be punishing that ultra anyways. If you are then I really hope that you win.
Obvious shit like punishing an ultra blocked with your own ultra isn’t, but knowing that you can punish Fei Longs Rekka x2 or x3 on block with mantis super is definately useful simply because the Fei Long you’re playing will probably not know this and it lessens their rekka pressure once they do know it’s possible. Things like that should be mentioned imo.
Character specific punishes with our ultra or super are very useful. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen a Bison do a Devils Reverse only to catch it with mantis U1 as soon as he flies midscreen with his purple fist in the air, invaluable. I think the current setup for our match-up thread is great, you can immidiately see these character specific punishes with ultra or supers and anyone can add information/write-ups by sending it to Tha Messiah
how can you say whiff punnishing isnt a reliable strategy? its like a fundamental theory behind playing footsies with any character. the idea is to throw out your jabs or shorts to feint sweeps or fierces and force her to try and counter poke with her heavy attacks, and allowing you to punnish her whiffs
do you really understand what footsies are? frame data can only mean so much. it certainly takes a backseat to mindgames and reactions
you also cant win any argument with “chun is better at footsies because her footsies are better”. it dosent explain anything behind what you are trying to say. following it up with she does more damage dosent say anything about footsies either.
if you want to tell me she has better range on her fierce and roundhouse, i’ll agree, but that dosent mean you dont have perfect counterpoke options to those moves. her standing mp has about the same range as gens cr.mp. her sweep is 2 frames faster, but shorter in range. im not seeing any clear advantage in any of the tools other than her walking slightly faster
i already know you cant win the chun ground game with mkxxxhands. that dosent mean all gens other buttons are useless
Damn Cochise! Didn’t know you were the expert in Gen match-ups. I apologize for my friend Vaneso’s horrible advice. Apparently his match-up experience with players like Killer Kai’s Fuerte, and AndyOCR Bison aren’t at the caliber of YOUR experience. I’m not sure where you are from, but apparently us SoCal players only have scrubs to play against.
… Oh and Chun out pokes Gen in a match because of her walk speed and follow-up option selects that get her in range, and are safe on block. Comparing frame data is not a means for practical use unless you consider all forms of “in-match” data. But, my experience in this match-up relies heavily on playing against Shizza’s Chun so, again, probably not the high caliber chuns that you are playing! So take my words as less than a grain of salt since where you live the salt grains are much larger!
Bait DP with safe jumps. Bait it with fake meaties. I meant punish ultra both as in punish baited DPs with U1 Mantis and punish her ultra. You do have to lay off the haterade.
I agree with your rundown of the chun matchup, but not of the Bison match up. Or the Fuerte match up. And footsies really isn’t all Gen has. I’m not going to flame you. Since you’re an expert, I’ll just let you keep losing matches you should be winning.
Yo Trapy
If you never do the FASC then just practice against fireballs
I find it easier to go from Crane to Mantis
I hit MP+MK with my thumb and middle finger, then hit all punches as soon as possible. (From Crane to Mantis)
I have yet to do it from Mantis to Crane though; Which is more useful
I agree with nubb here. all the buffer methods seem to make it harder. I do it the same way as nubb. It seems like the timing is more strict when to hit focus than it is to switch stances.
A good way to practice is record the same strength fireball, then record different strength fireballs to help adjust to timing, then record deejay’s ex and FASC both hits, then fei’s rekkas for 3 hits, then akumas hurricane kick into do. You do all that and the game will feed out a black belt fir you to wear at your next tourney!
so on the topic of gens tier placement. i found one thing that will limit gens position. most of you probrablly know this, but gens offensive OS’s kinda suck. i know he has a few, but they dont really cover a ton of options.
its mostly OS block, or OS sweep. serviceable, i guess. but wouldnt it be nice to able to cover every wake up option for your opponent
Ok so maybe I misunderstood a few things. Still though i think quite a few of you misunderstand what makes a “match-up”. Anyways I’m not going to dwell on it any longer.
Gen’s option selects are actually good as far as ultras go. Since he has two he gets a better variety. He’s one of the few characters that can option select rufus with meter and not be scared of ex messiah. As far as i know it’s only fei long U2, Cammy U2, and Dudley Cross counter. Maybe Rufus U2 also but not for much longer since characters will start dropping out of it when airborne. Not many characters can cover all options with an option select. Ryu can cover all of honda’s with OS dp. But against chun he has to guess. Os dp will cover ex bird and maybe ex hazanshu. However it loses to backdash as it will whiff. Os sweep takes care of the backdash but it loses to ex bird. Os ultra covers both ex bird and backdash but it loses to ex hazanshu as it will fly over ryu and recover in time to punish the ultra(not a likely scenario, and not one i think a lot of people know about. But if was playing chun and i knew he was OS ultraing I’d do it. So it IS a possible huge risk.) Against viper nobody can OS safely because EX feint. But again not many people will do that. Point is just get used to guessing. Being able to OS everything would be dumb IMO.
i wasnt talking about with one OS. gen has stuff to beat back dashes, but i think just about every character does
without an ultra or an ex bar, gen just cant cover a whole lot. its not the worst thing in the world, or in the game, but it could be better
ive heard Gen vs Bison is only a fair fight when Bison has no meter lol, id say its at least 5.5-4.5 if not 6-4 Bison