I can’t really add anything on the obscure normals, but…
This isn’t true. Both attacks just have low hurtboxes, they don’t have some special invincibility. Zangief’s hitbox is tiny, you basically need to scrape the ground, but it can be hit by attacks that aren’t actually lows. Cody’s hurtbox isn’t even very low though. In fact, when I played Cody in Super, I had a trick against Blanka where I’d use a regular zonk against a Blanka ball to deliberately eat a CH, setting up the perfect spacing and timing for a reversal U2. Mantis c.MP beats regular zonk clean.
This is NOT a fuzzy block by any definition, and there’s no mechanic that would prevent someone from blocking low. If it works, it’s only because they didn’t react fast enough to the short blockstun of the light attack.
The standard SF4 fuzzy block trick (and I’m probably partly to blame for this definition, considering I was using it in 2009) is basically a guard string into an overhead. Typically, a jumping attack will be used to make the opponent block high, and then you hit with another high (jumping) attack while they’re still standing. The attack would normally whiff if they crouch, so it’s not a standard instant overhead. However, if there isn’t a 2 frame gap I think, they won’t have time to crouch beneath the attack, and they’re suddenly holding downback against someone’s jumping attack. It’s a lot like Gen’s two hit j.HK, except you touch the ground in between hits. Gen can do these very easily with Crane j.HK*2, and then jump back MP or jump forward MK.
That’s not the true definition of fuzzy guarding, though. There’s an older definition from Virtua Fighter, where it’s a defensive technique allowing you to get some benefits of stand blocking and crouch blocking at the same time. Still, no one plays VF, and it does mean something specific in SF4. What you described fits neither definition, it’s just a high attack followed by a low. You can certainly catch people blocking high for too long if they’re expecting two hits, but that’s not a special technique or game mechanic or anything.
What Yeb said about fuzzy guard. In addition to it: It works in SF4 (despite having the wrong name) because when you press crouch then your character will take the crouching stance but you will still have your standing hurtbox for 2 frames. This means that if you have 0<frame gap<2 (or like in Hakan’s setups get them on wakeup where unless they use a move that forces crouch immediately so you don’t get the 2 frame transition or you reversal then even if you are holding down you can get caught in his kick spd which only catches standing/jumping) you can take advantage of this.
where in the name of heaven have you been!!! I really loved your Gen in vanilla and havent heard of ya in super and AE, pls do you have any current matches on youtube?
I’m terribly sorry but I was never able to hit gief out of PPP Lariat with c.MP, yet I was able to with Crane s.HP (tho difficult). Hopefully you can enlighten me here.
I was able to hit Cody out of his zonk during his last few start-up frames, but meatying with c.MP against wake-up normal zonk never seemed to work. Meatying with c.MK seemed to counter him out normally. Gonna test this tomorrow.
Gief’s hurtbox is extremely low. I really meant it when I said you need to scrape the ground, most characters can’t touch it with a crouching punch. However, it’s still vulnerable to attacks that can be blocked high as long as they reach to the ground, like Sakura’s c.MP.
Cody’s a weird issue, because I think the zonk knuckle actually has its hurtbox change throughout the animation, from what I remember. It starts extremely low, but grows larger as he rises. You’d need to watch the hitbox videos frame by frame, but I don’t have them anymore. I’d believe it if certain attacks could whiff early on, but he’s not exactly going to be zonking through your c.MP pokes.
Ok so I’m finally back to playing street fighter after a nearly half year hiatus. I started up AE and I’m a little overwhelmed with the new stuff to be honest. So all that Gen got was a better mantis s.hk and two target combos pretty much? Is there anything important I should know regarding Gen in AE? I need a brief overview, mainly because there is not much new on this section since I last saw it, and most of the new stuff is really fragmented atm.
So what I’ve got so far is that target combo c.lk>c.mk seems kind of crappy and the s.mp>s.hp is pretty useful I guess. Any new combos I should take note of? FADC? New properties? Lay it on me. Right now I just play super Gen as I always did, heh.
Also what is the general concensus on Gen in AE? Did he get a lot better or is he as frail as ever? I will probably find this out soon enough myself but I’d like to hear some opinions on this from some of you guys (looking at HNMC mike, messiah lol). Since AE is a fresh start I might pick another main depending on how things work out for Gen this time due to me wanting to play some tournaments instead of crappy ranbats lol.
Along with what you already know:
Mantis cr.mp has faster startup, like Crane cr.mp now. Much better poke
Crane Ultra 2 is a lot faster, better at punishing fireballs.
Hurtbox on Mantis s.lp was reduced.
The target combo is actually hp>mk, weird but very effective. Mash the two buttons and you get a cancel into hands, so FADC combos are simpler with this TC.
That’s pretty much what he got, and he recieved no nerfs. I think these buffs make him much more solid, while making him more accessible.
@warlike the new TCs don’t really up damage against those with wide hitboxes, it just makes his bnb consistently over 200 damage if you do (m)2lk > (m)2lp > tc2 xx lk.wtf this doesn’t whiff on anyone and (m)5mp > tc2 xx lk.wtf also hits everyone for good damage too. However its about 4 damage lower than those that (m)5mp > (m)5mk xx lk.wtf instead of tc2 worked on.
Okay, this is beginning to annoy me. What the hell option selects do you use against Chun Li?
My bnb inputs are generally:
(m)2lp+lk (start with a crouch tech)
(m)2lp+hk (OS sweep)
(m)5hp piano mp and lp (plinking the hp with the mp)
(m)5mk+lp
623+either hp or lk depending on whether I dropped the link or not (hands on block wtf on hit)
The problem I have with this is that if Chun backdashes the crouch tech input then she is safe from the sweep (she can block it) as are some of the other characters (Elf and Rose iirc). This works great on everyone else when I make them not reversal etc. Against Chun if I swap in mp instead of hk then she is too far away, with hp instead then she blocks this too. Its REALLY starting to irritate me that even when she has no meter and I have an advantage I seemingly have no answer to her backdashing. Any theory fighters wanna help me out on this?
Gen is better. Not Vanilla good, but definitely better. TC2 combos get you a little bit more damage, but maybe more importantly it nets better meter than what Super Gen was getting. Helps a lot.
In a more meta-game sort of way Gen is also better in that he fairs better against Yun than most of the cast does. Not saying he has the advantage on Yun, but a healthy match-up anyway.
With the exception of a few specific matches (Like three or four, max?) like Makoto, Gen has better match ups against everybody compared to Super. In my opinion anyway :).
He definitely got better (I mean, 0 nerfs + X buffs = buffed), but I cannot finalize my opinion on whether he is still weak or not since I don’t know all of his changes (I honestly want to know which crane normals got better). Oh and if wiki is correct, his Mantis Super has 1f faster start-up (1+5 instead of 1+6).
Thanks guys. Went to the lab this whole evening yesterday and suffice to say I am fairly pleased that his meter building is a lot better than it was in super, albeit slightly less (hard to judge though) than it was in vanilla. More importantly, I can see FADC combos being a lot more useful now then in super because of the faster meter building. In super it used to be quite the debate amongst Gen players, some preferred to never FADC (except to finish someone off) to save for their super (like me) and some opted to go for big FADC combos.
So basically he is still the footsie monbster he always was with some interesting buffs that make it easier for him to combo BnB and some slight updates on (mantis) normals + crane U2 and better meter building…
One new combo/blockstring is (mantis) st.mp>st.mp>cr.MP>Hands
which is really hard to combo, but it does, even if I fuck it up, its a frametrap if they jab at all, and if they block its a blockstring
Another thing, the new TC2 is comboable from cr.lk
For example:
(mantis) cr.lk>cr.lp>st.lp>st.hp>st.mk>lk.gekiro
thats my primary bnb, but I often skip the st.lp, and I often just mash hp+mk to get it out fast enough and to get hands for super.
The difference between ending TC2 with hands or gekiro, gekiro beats hands by about 60 damage, so try to use it, but if you are blocked, hands is safe obviously.
(mantis) st.hk is actually useful now, its longer than all sweeps and doesnt get swept either, I dont even think chun can sweep that! probably the longest poke in the game without moving forward. So useful for corner pressure when they think your out of range!
Also, vs Twins Gen wins, he can AA divekicks with st.lp st.mp cr.hp(ALL DAY LONG) and check out the OS found in the gen video thread, I love walking up to a knocked down twin and OS’ing the wakeup, which is usually kicks, and then feeding them the power of my TC2 >;O
Mantis c.MP has slightly less range compared to s.MK, and it also pushes Gen less forward when canceled into a special. This makes s.MP -> c.MP -> LK Gekiro character specific.
If the c.LK is a meaty and sweep is timed well OS sweep should work actually.
youre inputting your chain OS too slow, or your meaty is mis timed.
chuns backdash is 22 frames. gens cr.lk has 2 active+8 recovery, and startup on sweep is 8 frames.
so if you are hitting your meaty during its active frames, the sweep would come out in 18 frames with perfect timing, and chun wouldnt be able to block yet.
the 4 frame hittable window is smaller than most characters, but it can be done
