Games to cement fundamentals

Does anybody have any game suggestions they felt have helped them really build on their fundamentals.

I feel the current gen games are making me sloppy. MKX has some high damage combos. So once you are in you just make it count. And SFV feels very much like a your turn my turn your turn my turn type of game.

Obviously they require good fundamentals. Like any fighting game. But I don’t put much effort into that sort of thing anymore.

3S felt more technical. If that makes sense. Maybe I’m just being lazy with my playing. Maybe some of you feel the same. But if there are some decent older titles you have played that you felt really needed your fundamental chops to be up, I’d be happy to hear about them.

I would say the game that really brings it all to the table is CvsSNK2. It teaches you everything you need from fundementals to execution truly di 2D daddy. Download and try Hyper Dragonball Z its really as close as a new age 2D fighters gets to oldskool quality and is worked on rigourously not many characters right now but new ones on the way and each characters has plenty to learn. I have quite a few vids on it and can show you way more stuff from other heads plus we have access to an online version of the game as well

Super Turbo. No game teaches fundamentals as well as ST. Spacing, zoning, proper ground game. Really really deep neutral.

The Fatal Fury saga is really good in that regard. Special in particular, but the Real Bouts are good too.

As for new games, try KOF XIV. It has excellent normals, good zoning, spacing and punishing whiffs is very important. Has a Street Fighter feel even though it retains KOF basics.

unlike what some people think, the fundamentals themselves are not “hard”, but it just takes time for everything to click. The more involved you stay in the community, the more you think about fighting games, the quicker it will click. So play what you like now. Have fun with whatever you’re playing.

It’s kind of like learning to sing. There are a lot of elements going into it, and it is a highly coordinated act. But it isn’t really a difficult thing once you understand it, but the more you gear your mind to mastering it, the better off you will probably be. Sometimes it just takes watching the right video, hearing just the right tip, playing the right character, thinking just the right thought that will lead to certain that “aha! I get it” epiphany. Once you start having these epiphanies, they all carry over to all fighters and you really start to have a certain comfort with the genre itself and can easily break into a bunch of other games just for the fun of it in a short amount of time.

It probably couldn’t hurt to try shoto characters or something. I agree with cronopio that kof14 seems like a decent game for building fundamentals, or KOF 98. I would probably recommend kof 98 the most.

Thanks guys.

@StoneDrum the problem I am having at the moment isn’t with my fundamentals. It seems to be with the games I am currently playing and my attitude towards them. I feel in SFV and MKX fundamentals aren’t what I am using to get in and do what I want. I am playing fine just letting them slip away. And I miss having to plan out what I am doing. And the mental aspect behind the fundamentals.

just stop being lazy then? fighting games arent games u just go through the motions. it takes brains and guts

I think the argument/notion that an x or y game is good to teach fundamentals is flawed.
In the end what constitute fundamentals is the spacing game and this depends of many factors which vary from game to game (Movement options, hitboxes and hurtboxes, sub systems)
Not even on the same series you will find that the same rules apply. What works for SF2 it not necessarily translate well for SF3, CVS2 or SFV.

And even then if there are some core aspects that you could say that work accross them, this doesn’t mean that they translate to other games.
Even ignoring the differences on sub systems between all the games, we still have to account for the different movement options that different games have, which change completly how you need to apprach the spacing game.

Not really. Playing a game that has emphasis on fundamentals will force you to learn proper spacing and concepts like space control, and that will translate to any game regardless of mechanics.

playing fundamentally sound is essentially choosing low risk, higher reward options, and how this is accomplished varies from game to game. so the best way to become fundamentally sound is just to pick a game you enjoy, play it a lot, learn as much about the game and your character as possible, and always be optimizing how you play away from risky decisions and towards low risk, but still strong, ones.

basically fundamentals = game knowledge + sound decision making. there is no skillset called “fundamentals” that makes you strong at all fighting games.

cronopio disagreed with igloo, but he does have a really good point, I think. Sure, when you consider fighting game fundamentals, you need to be able to conceptualize all of those fundamentals that are the backbone to any fighting game- spacing (footsies), yomi, intelligent meter usage, mixups and pressure, okizeme, the mind games, understanding the general x beats y beats z layout that largely carries from every single fighting game (shoto characters are the original example of this setup, and other characters diverge from shotos to provide new and interesting x beats y beats z scenarios), etc.

That said, there are certain “mindsets” that will you will eventually develop that literally will help do what you are asking for in this thread, which is to cement fundamentals. These mindsets are built over time, either through experience, hearing the right tip at the right time as I said above, or simply having epiphanies as you play or think about the game. One of these mindsets is that you want to be thinking such as you play any fighter- “how can I stay as safe as I possible can with my character, while simultaneously asking how i can score damage.” Each fighting game is different, and so the answer to this question changes dramatically, but no matter what game, at high level, this is one of the major mindsets you always need to be playing with.

You are always going to be forced to take risks in a fighting game, because not everything is reactable, meaning someone has to take damage, even if from a measly jab. For everything that IS reactable, be a wall. Stay safe and either block it, avoid it, or straight up beat it if you have an answer for it. Most budding players don’t realize this, nor are they always mindful of what is really safe or not…So what they will do is take risks the entire round from start to finish, maybe score some reallly great and swaggy risks and do some really amazing things, but still might lose and wonder what the hell they did wrong. The problem is even though they made some huge risks that paid off big time, in the end, those didn’t outweigh the rewards they gave the opponent when they didn’t pay off. You can see this clearly in Garou MOTW. If a noob goes against a high level player, the high level person can literally just sit in the corner all day and react to 99% every action the opponent does and counters it. The high level player took 0 risks, used 0 effort, and will win 100% of the time, often times with a “perfect”. This is the most logical way to play. But when you place 2 high level players, they both know to stay safe as possible, and they both know what beats what in every situation…So what happens? **Another mindset is required, which is, “what can I do, or what can my character do to open up the opponent, granted that he is going to try and be as safe as possible, and potentially has the capacity counter basically every single action I do?”**This is where true character and game knowledge comes in, where the mindgames come in… And where the fundamentals are required, lest without them you really have no capacity to play safely nor effectively anyway. You can’t play safe if you cant master the footsies. You can’t open anyone up without a mastery of mixups. you cant be strategic without correct meter control, you can’t make the right reads enough enough without developing yomi…and so forth.

Street Fighter 2 HD remix.

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaah, NOPE.
Learning SF2 doesn’t make you good at any game that has better movement options. It doesn’t even make you good at games with similar movement options that have parries.

Are you saying the concept of spacing and footsies will be forgotten with the next game you play? Because thats just silly.

No shit sf2 doesn’t play like every other fighting game and you’ll have to adapt to whatever game you pick up next.

Thats not what he was saying. He was saying it teaches you the concepts. Now you’ll know about reversals, antiairs, zoning, footsies or wiff punishing.

You’ll just have to figure out how that stuff works in the next game you pick up.

The notion that each game is a clean slate without common concepts that are present in differing degrees in every 2D fighter is pretty foolish to be honest. You’d have to relearn every game from the ground up otherwise and everyone knows that’s not the case.

No, it won’t translate 100% depending on the game, but every single 2D fighter has at least something that will be there. Tools might change, but learning the concept in a game that is mostly about spacing will make it much easier to make the adjustment to other games.

I know my KOF game improved greatly when ST sped up my understanding of spacing, positioning and zoning. And even in GG my Axl game draws a ton from what I learned in that game so yeeeeeeeeah, it does help and knowledge does translate.

picks Claw

I think GG is pretty undersold on that front, many characters in the game are good for working on fundamentals.

Ironically the best Claws at high level have superb fundamentals, like MAO and ARG. When he’s not diving, which is usually any time the opponent is not knocked down, he’s heavily based on good footsies.

Interesting discussion. @IglooBob has the right of it though, at least he’s the most correct.

“Fundamentals” is a nebulous term that we as the fgc have never bothered to define. We all know it to look at it, but defining it? Hard.

MY definition is 4 parts and 2 concepts.

Concept 1:

  1. Those things in your chosen game that you will consistently be doing and having acces to.

Concept 2:

  1. Knowing your situations
  2. Knowing your options within those situations
  3. Having the ability to execute those options to their most optimal end, optimal being both executional and decision based.

An example of concept 1:

AAing well in any streetfighter is a fundamental ability. The better you are at it, the better you will be at the game. This of course includes things such as not being in/avoiding hard to AA situations.

However, this fundamental is literally not needed in fighting games like tekken where there is no jumping.

Another example is punishing. In ST, punishing isn’t a huge crucial fundamental because most things are safe or plus on block. There are of course many exceptions like blocked and wiffed reversals, wiffed moves in general etc. But punishing takes on less significance in ST than it does in a game like tekken.

This of course is only the most basic application of the concept. I’m deliberately keeping these examples basic as to try and write less.

Examples of concept 2:

Let’s take streetfighter 5 as it has lots of fundamentals in it that are widely known in a broad sense, but unknown to the collective playing majority as sf5 fundamentals are very different from other streetfighter fundamentals, when regarding importance of certain fundamentals.

Knowing your situation:

An easy concept to understand, but not to have knowledge of…Let’s take a look:

Rashid does L mixer which is -2 on block and leaves him point blank. He has a 3 frame move, (st.lk) that he can use right afterward. That moves leaves only a 5 frame gap, but that gap is more than enough for 3 and 4 frame jab characters to be able to sneak in an attack before rashids st.lk can hit them. There is a problem however. Rashids L mixer, both online and offline, has weird blockstun properties. It takes longer to be able to press a button than it seems. This makes getting your move out before his, harder.

So if you know the frames, you know the situation, but if you haven’t specifically practiced interrupting this string in training mode there is a big chance you could be eating rashids “fake” pressure here and get counterhit to boot.

Which brings us to…

Knowing your options:

Let’s take the rashid situation again and add another situation in as well.

I already explained the frames for rashids situation… but what are ALL the options?

Wel, if you have a 3-4 frame jab, a 5 frame medium and an invincible reversal then an option tree develops:

If you have the right timing then a 5 frame or faster medium will always work as will a jab and a throw. But rashid can ex mixer reversal all those options. So, blocking has to be an option as well. And if blocking is an option, then throwing is an option for rashid. And if throwing is an option for rashid, then backdashing, teching and or jumping out of the throw is also an option. So because of the “nothing guaranteed” nature of the situation, there can be many options and that makes it a very murky situation indeed. In situations like this, it’s very crucial to play the risk versus reward game.

Instead of using your jab, which is low damage, but easy, you may instead make sure to ALWAYS use your 5 frame medium so that your reward is higher, after all if your opponent does a reversal to you then you doing a jab or a medium are the same exact risk. So why not use the move that gives more reward if it hits?

And also make sure to use your best combo in the times that you block the ex mixer and can punish it.

Alternatively… You can just V reversal rashid to not have to deal with that situations murkiness. But that doesn’t detract from the fact that if you can never time your 5 frame move perfectly, or can only time it or your jab well around half the time, then you may never even make it into the higher level guesses… So it’s imperative that you know the situation, can react to it in time, and have the timing down to get your move out on the first frame.

Another example is Ryu jumping in with LK:

If you are playing against Ryu and he is jumping at you with that move from a certain range, you know the situation already. But depending on the character, you may not know how to deal with it. Let’s say that your most obvious AA doesn’t work. Well, if you don’t know what DOES work, you are now “free” to his j.lk and he will likely abuse that, should he notice it, and he probably will.

Which brings us to:

Having the ability to execute your options (which I already slightly covered above)

This is easy to understand. This is simply execution and the easiest place to improve… HOWEVER… In sf5 it is much less about combo practice, and much more about “punishment practice”

Using rashid as an example, lots of lower level rashid players like to use his eagle kicks. Both the air versions and the ground versions. At first this seems really dumb, but there are some smart attributes. Even though these moves tend to be unsafe as hell on block, the problem is that the disadvantage varies AS WELL AS the distance that rashid bounces to on block.

Moves that look virtually identical have radically different punishes. You can use a one size fits all solution for some characters, but in those cases you are leaving damage on the table when you use them.

The solution? It isn’t easy. You basically have to have rashid do his different moves and practice punishing them in training mode.

And actually this is what sf5 training mode is more about than anything else… Learning to punish common strategies from your opponent, both on block and pre emptively.

Your ability to do so, is absolutely fundamental to sf5… Amongst many other things.

the cool thing is, once you get to a high skill level in at least one fighting game, you pretty much have gotten a strong enough understanding and comfort with the genre to be able to break into other games pretty quickly. Whereas it might take like 300+ hours or so to go from never having played a fighter ever to a strong player, once youve reached this point, it may only take like… 80 or so hours to become pretty strong in another game…Then maybe the next game might only take 50 or so hours to be skilled.

Honestly, I think that no game is truly best for fundamentals, but rather that each game you play will probably help you develop better certain aspects or certain fundamentals. The more fg’s you have xp with, the stronger your fundamentals will probably become, because you have learned from all of those diverse games. If you look at top players, they all have experience with several games, even if they have their main game.

Dont know if this is of any relevance but I just got a fight stick not too long ago and it has been a long time since I used that or a pad so I have been playing on Battle arena Toshinden 2 to get used to it. The interesting side of playing it for the practice is it is a 3D game that utilizes generic 2D fighter mechanics like combo and special moves etc then it is a case of getting down the extras it being 3D has like movement basically setting me up to play 2D or 3D titles well that is the theory anyway lol. As I mentioned I am just playing that game to get used to the stick but I will be playing others

If you’re trying to get sick at sf5 the best use of your time will be to play and practice sf5. You may find that there’s overlap with other games, but practicing another game to get good at your game is generally suboptimal. You should approach your game with a mindset for improvement!

Now if you come to the conclusion that sf5 is actually a turd and you’d rather play ST or 3s because they’re better games (this sounds like a sensible conclusion to me), then go for it. But neither game will teach you more about sf5 than sf5 will.