sorry, double post
The C buttons where fine for camera control. Your the fist person ive ever seen who had an issue with the c buttons in Mario64.
Id also prefer nintendo not piss out a bunch of sequels for the sake of making he library fatter. Gamers silly these days, quantity over quality.
The problem is that not many of their games qulify as quality tbh.
And having more options is always a good thing, no one is saying that they should release different versions of their games yearly, but having more games will surely please their fans, specially when they sometimes take polirizing steps with what they do with their games.
Most people would argue Nintendo is one of the benchmarks when it comes to quality, can’t agree with you there Hecatom.
And that’s exactly what Gnalvl is saying.
I don’t know man, many of their games have been lacking lately, one of the other reasons why i abandoned them and why i am not bothering with the WiiU.
Yea we’ve had this conversation before. I dunno man, I have yet to make a Nintendo game purchase i regret, but then when I guess when I look bad I have a hard time thinking of game purchases i regret…Heavenly Sword probably…
He’s probably talking about stupid shit like Link’s Crossbow Training and party/mini-game collections like Wii Music, Wii Play and Wii Party.
Nintendo’s core series’ however are still top notch. Galaxy 1 and 2 were great and basically perfected the 3D Mario platforming formula. Skyward Sword although not my favorite 3D Zelda by any means was still a 40-50 hr game, double that if you did Hero Mode (New Game +). I haven’t played Pikmin 3 yet but I’m sure those who have will say it’s good and not some broken unpolished mess.
You can get by in SM64 without analog camera “fine”, because it’s a slow-paced collectathon rather than a fast-paced, 3D SMB game. Nintendo limited the scope of the game to what was possible with their controller, and vice versa. We know by now that much more speed and precision is possible in 3D with an analog camera, especially in conjunction with over-the-shoulder camera schemes.
Think of the moments in a 3D platformer where you’re supposed to walk a narrow plank or tightrope. The easiest way to cross these would be to aim your camera at the end of the rightrope and walk forward. - simple. You get the exact angle you want, you can confirm it before you move, and you can make fine adjustments with both the left and right analog as you go along.
With SM64’s C buttons, it’s almost impossible to line up perfectly with the tightrope since everything moves in chunky rachet-like increments, so now you have to push the left analog at the exact right angle to move along without walking off. Since you can’t confirm the angle before you start moving, there is always a higher risk that you will walk off before you can realize your angle is wrong and correct. You can try to make fine adjustments with the left stick, but it’s less precise with a bad camera angle, and any change to the camera while moving can cause a huge miss-step, since the appropriate movement angle changes in large chunks corresponding to the new camera angle.
Then you’ve got tightropes in Ocarina - since the C buttons accessed items instead of the camera, all you could do is make potshots with the Z trigger and left stick to try to snap the camera correctly on target, or switch to 1st person and slowly aim it like a bow before running. If you did this correctly, then you could just hold forward to make it across, but sometimes it was impossible to get a good angle, and you couldn’t tweak the camera while moving, so you just had to try to hold the left stick at the right angle and hope for the best.
When your game is full of crap like this, it’s awkward, slow, and needlessly limits the platforming potential of a game, which is why you can pull off way more intense platforming (combined with shooting) in Quake on a dual analog pad than in Mario or Zelda on an N64 controller. Right out of the gate, by virtue of the short-sighted controller, SM64 was doomed by design to be a game where you plod around boring setpieces looking for stars, rather than a true SMB where you make hairpin jumps and turns while smashing blocks, toasting goombas with fireballs, kicking koopa shells through crowds of enemies with bowling-ball precision, and dodging bullet bills coming from every angle.
Regarding sequels, the “quality vs. quantity” argument just doesn’t work given the low “quality” of Nintendo’s few completed sequels. Sunshine, Galaxy, Windwaker, and Twilight were just glossier continuations of the same mistakes made on N64 - boring collectathons rather than fast-paced action platformers. Sure, with each game, Nintendo made minor improvements; Mario finally got a 3-part healthbar instead of 6 or 8 or whatever ridiculous crap was in SM64, Zelda got the 1:1 sword gimmick… but these are relatively tiny upgrades compared to the full potential of 3D adventure games.
And part of the problem is that since these games come so few and far between, Nintendo is afraid to make very major changes which might disappoint fans who were waiting years just for a prettier version of the last game; thus innovation is stifled. With more titles being cranked out, they could afford to take more risks on new ideas without losing fans - anyone who doesn’t like a particular entry only need wait a year or so for a new iteration they might like better.
You’re seriously the only one I’ve ever seen with this problem. The Camera in Zelda hard to use? You tap a button and it orients directly behind your character. It’s sooooo easy to use. I’m beginning to think you have motor skill problems.
No, you entirely missed the point again. Ocarina’s camera is easy to use, only because the game never throws you more than someone could feasibly handle with its shitty camera. There are never any enemies near any drops, so you have all the time in the world to inch across any narrow walkways (plus you have to push hard off the edge to fall). You never fight more than a few enemies at once, because then Z-targeting would start to show its limitations, and you’d have to just sit there clicking Z till it randomly picks the enemy you want, rather than just pointing the camera towards the enemy yourself.
And thus, the game is boring, because the developers weren’t allowed to give you any challenge within the confines of its shitty controls. The 3-4 stalfos knights in the game are the only time you fight an enemy where an ounce of effort is needed to win a sword fight, and they’re not that hard. There is no real platforming either, there is basically no action…it may as well be a point-and-click adventure, because the only “hard” parts are guessing where Nintendo hid the answers to the “puzzles”.
And that’s actually another point where its controls hamper the game. Since you can’t maneuver the camera to look around while traveling, you’re artificially much less likely to spot clues while running around. Sure, if you stop and use the 1st person camera to stand still and look around, you can check up in the trees, the ceiling, up on the hill, etc, but that’s extremely time-consuming compared to just looking around on the go.
I remember a couple years back, this girl I was dating picked up Twilight on Wii and the camera really threw her for a loop. For hours she was looking for the cat, the bird, the beehive, whatever, because the more she ran in circles around the town, the more she was forced to play with blinders on, ignoring everything but what was straight in front. I kept telling her to stop and use first person to check the trees and stuff, but the longer it took, the less patient she got, so she didn’t want to stop and use 1st person and in the end she just quit the game the first day she owned it.
It’s like if you were trying to find a store in a street full of strip malls and weren’t allowed to read the names out the passenger window - you’d have to pull in to every strip mall, navigate the parking lot, and turn so your car was pointing at the door to see if it was the right store. That’s a retarded way to design a game.
By comparison in games like Quake 1 & 2, which were released around the same time as Ocarina, enemies are deliberately placed near pitfalls. You’re expected to run and jump around the map at tops speeds, crossing all the pitfalls traps and spotting all the secrets in the midst of combat - and this is all possible because the camera is 100% in your own hands at all times. 3D is supposed to expand the action of the game, not handicap it, and that’s exactly the problem with Nintendo’s modern games.
Moments like this in American McGee’s Alice (Q3 engine) are more fast-paced, and more reminiscent of old-school Zelda than any of the boring fights in Ocarina, and a simple, obvious example of where Zelda is missing out on camera control. Alice is not the end-all-be-all of anything, it’s just one of the first steps that Nintendo failed on the way to making an awesome 3D Zelda formula.
A game like the original SMB can be played as hard as you want - if you suck, you can just walk everywhere and be super careful, and maybe you can get by even if you’re not very good. If you’re getting bored with it, you can hold the run button the whole time, and now to survive you have to make quick, precise jumps and slides to get around all the enemies, you have to collect powerups just to stay alive, and it keeps you on your toes. That element is missing from modern Nintendo. The games are boring. Mario never feels like a speedrun. Using Link’s sword beam never has the texas shootout aspect of Zelda 1, the melee fights never feel an ounce like Soul Calibur, there are not even basic jumps like Zelda II or Link’s Awakening, and every time I pickup a key I have to receive a lecture with the dictionary definition of a key with a footnote about how it doesn’t work in other dungeons.
Mario and Link gameplay is more fun in the fan game Super Mario Bros. X than in Nintendo’s 3D games, because N just never figured out how to bring the action out on all 3 axes (except maybe in SM3DW, which remains to be seen).
Guess we have to agree to disagree, I find Nintendo makes games better then 90% of what most developers shit out these days whether there are two sticks or not. I didn’t know stopping to use the FPS camera to look around was such a taxing thing to do. Yea OOT is pretty over rated but it’s controls have nothing to do it with it, the game being easy as fuck has everything to do with it. The game isn’t fun because the developers failed to give you challenging anything in OOT. The controls have jack shit to do with it. Skyward Sword has pretty compelling combat despite using pretty much the exact same control foundation the series has used since OOT. Hell WWHD just came out and and people are getting tossed by Hero mode. The cont scheme has nothing to do with it, the difficulty and lack of pressure Nintendo has put into the series has everything to do with it. Mario Sunshines waterpack-less stages put a big old hole your argument that the 3D mario doesn’t have challenging zippy levels that are undo-able because of the control scheme.
But really something being hard doesn’t exactly mean it’s bad or low quality, it just means it’s easy and yea for some that’s not that compelling, but it’s not always the end game. Mario in 2D is piss easy to, but they’re still fun games.
So it’s gone from a Nintendo criticism thread to I hate Nintendo: The Thread, eh?
Are you implying that at any point this thread wasn’t the “I hate Nintendo” thread?
play super mario 64 with a ps3 or a 360 controller, now play it with an n64 controller. if you’re able to conjure up a critical analysis you’ll find the tactility of the n64 pad has more of a transporting ability for nintendos games than the newer pads do.
there is less emphasize on transporting in games now and more of a focus on immersion through participation of “worthy” tasks, as if one doesn’t have enough abstract immersion in life already, games today are stripping away the geometrical beauty of psychological transference
I think you’re forgetting that the 3DS needed a huge price cut before the sales took off, and the 2DS isn’t cheap for them to produce, and you’re saying that this mobile console is generating a huge cashflow when I’ve already discussed the financials, the fact is nintendo pulls in a lot less money than the other giants.
Furthermore I’m talking about nintendo blatantly killing the smash hype with a smaller roster, no story mode, which casuals thrive on. My point is that after the horrible game that brawl was a lot less people are going to buy a wiiu for smash, sure people will still buy a wiiu for smash but with all the complaints I’m hearing it sounds like they’re missing out on a lot of sales.
That Smash game that sold 12 million copies sure is shitty… GTFOH with that nonsense.
Brawl may have a lot of shit that Smashboards hates, but any game that sells that many copies on a console “gamers” consider terrible must be doing something right somewhere.
Even if all the people on Smashboards and other sites I see that complain everytime Sakurai farts don’t buy the new Smash, it will still sell 10+ mil, bet it.
Capcom and a hell of a lot of developers/publishers wish they had a game series that could sell 12 mil on a supposed “terrible” entry…
Hindsight is 20/20. I can’t say anything on camera issues in Skyward Sword really because you’re 1 of the few that actually pointed out anything about camera…usually the argument around Skyward sword centers around the actually motion controls. I didn’t have a single issue the camera in that game nor Super Mario 64 from my experience since for it’s time the C buttons made due and were fine. Despite the games having auto aim Goldeneye and Perfect Dark were fucking amazing back then with the use of the C button…being able to somewhat move your character in such a manner that only people who owned PC’s were able to do was an accomplishment since it seemed nobody else was up to the task at that moment and it wasn’t until Goldeneye came out that the developers started realizing the FPS was viable on consoles. I don’t know what to say to this really. You’re faulting them on something that nobody even considered doing at the time. I suppose you’re also going to say that when they made rumble that they should have thought ahead to include it into the controller? Perhaps Sega should have thought to include all the extra bells and whistles that Xbox Live has now? Like I don’t know how to respond to this lol.
Also…I play a wide variety of games…so I don’t get your assumption of ‘there is only 1 or 2 games to play’ across both the N64, GC, and Wii U. Just because their are games on a platform that you don’t find in line with your tastes, doesn’t mean that the games don’t exist to everyone else.
No I’m not forgetting the the 3DS needed a huge price cut. How long ago was that? 2 years now? Fairly certain…checks really quick Yeah that price cut has been in place for about 2 years now. You don’t think with all the 3DS systems that they’ve sold so far after that what with it having been at the top of the charts that they haven’t been making profit off of it by now? I don’t know where you got the information that the 2DS isn’t cheaper for them to produce since 1. It doesn’t have to worry about 3D and 2. They’re using 1 screen underneath the plastic instead of having to fit 2 for the top and bottom and 3. the 2DS design is simplistic as all hell. I’m pretty sure having to design a clamshell design takes a bit more money and time to make than a wedge tablet…I don’t have anything to back that up though.
Casuals thrive on the story mode of smash? I’m…not seeing this… Smash 64 had no story mode to speak of and Melee didn’t really have one either. Brawl was the first and only game to try to implement some kind of serious story for the game. Smaller roster also does not equal worst game. People are taking ‘smaller roster’ out of proportion considering that we don’t know who is returning and who is staying. Then there’s the fact that we still don’t know if DLC is going to be involved or not. These people who are complaining about stuff are just trying to find stuff to complain about when there really isn’t anything to go on to really complain about. The most horrible thing about Brawl was tripping…guess what? It ain’t there no mo.