From a game design perspective, what is the purpose of combos?

Current Fighting Games Fighting Game Discussion
1

DISCLAIMER: I am not saying combos are bad or that fighting games shouldn’t have them.

This is probably a dumb question, but it’s something I’ve been wondering. I’m not talking about whether combos are fun to do or watch or whatever, but from a game design perspective, what is their point?

Is there a difference between a combo doing X damage and just having single hit do X damage instead? The player on the receiving end still lost X health, but it took a lot less time.

I understand that they do reward practice and skill, but so does the gameplay in general. Would a game be more or less “deep” if it focused less on combos and more on spacing, footsies, and other core elements? All of those things require skill and practice to master. Do combos exist just to add a specific form of skill to the games–precise execution and timing gained from hours of practice?

Basically, do they have a real purpose, or are they just put into games because they’re fun and flashy and they’re pretty much expected at this point? The earliest fighting games had no combos, and even when combos were discovered in SF2, they weren’t an intended mechanic. So, it’s not impossible to imagine fighting games without them, although they are definitely a part of modern fighting games.

This is not a veiled complaint or rant against combos or anything like that, I was just looking for your thoughts about what their actual purpose in a game is. If there’s no real reason for combos other than “fighting games have combos and they’re fun”, I’m cool with that. I’ve just never seen anyone question their purpose and thought it might make for interesting discussion.

2

Combos help separate players who know what they’re doing from players who are just mashing wildly.

It doesn’t matter all too much how random my opponent is, if I’m converting every hit into a 40% combo and he’s barely taking 8% of mine with his stray hits, I’m going to come out the winner virtually every single time. I only need to land three hits while my opponent must somehow land 12.

Which I suppose is a desirable quality to have in fighting games. Nobody wants to invest time into a game only to get randomed out… really the only people who enjoy getting randomed out are random players themselves.

3

Combos are merely a means to get more damage out of a single attack. It’s that fucking simple.

Even the most unwashed of heathens should know this when it comes to fighting games.

And not just for fighting games, but for any game that uses a “combo” system.

4

Them bitches look nice.

5

If you can’t read/understand his question, don’t bother answering. If you don’t like the subject/topic, don’t bother answering. WTF is this online macho, tough guy shit?

I agree with Sleazoid. From a player perspective, combos provide additional damage from increasingly (or in some cases rather easy) difficult combos to give the “better” player a greater chance of doing more damage. I think from a developer perspective, they’re probably going for flashy stuff cos they know that’s what we, generally, like. Just as you said, it’s pretty much expected at this point. I’ve read/heard that combos in the earliest SF games were an unintended result; don’t know how true that is.

[media=youtube]sR1oOU1s4Kk[/media]
I don’t even play Marvel but that video is nuts.

Personally, I’ve never understood the need for chain combo’s and am not too fond of them in SFxT (Marvel’s a different beast I guess).

6

I am in no way a designer so I can’t really answer this question all that well. I will, on the other hand, give you some places you can ask:

http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?forums/newbie-saikyo-dojo.52/

It may not seem like it but at this point your quesiton more or less goes here because you are wondering on the why of the issue. If the thread was about fighting games without combos as a way to explore gameplay discussion, then it’d be more appropiate here.

Secondly you could go to:

http://www.fantasystrike.com/forums/index.php?forums/game-design.14/

There are plenty of people on the forum above that would love discussing the topic above. Sirlin is all sorts of nutty on some ends but if you ask him he’ll give you a real detailed answer on the issue.

Have fun!

8

I totally see the OPs point in asking this as I’ve played fighting games before combos were even a feature when they were all about the meta, and outsmarting your opponent with the tools given to you, not who can consistently do a 30+ hit combo off of one hit confirm.
Now I’m not saying newer games do not have those meta aspects but they have indeed made memorization of combos and execution of them as much of a priority as the mindgames which dominated gameplay before them. I don’t think the ideas of “big” combos really took off until Killer Instinct was released and basically started the whole “massive” combo systems in games today.

The “issue” I see in todays games is they do indeed take away from that old feeling of the mental battle and reaction wars. For example, why should I lose a character to a 100% combo in marvel vs capcom 3 because I guessed wrong once on a 50-50. That’s not a mental mindgame, it’s pure luck on the opponents part. Where in the past I would have only lost a small bit of health for “guessing” wrong, here you can lose an entire 3-character game with two wrong guesses. At least before I would have to be continually forced into a 50-50 setup to lose and I would have time during the match to recognize and adapt to my opponents shenanigans during the match. Also being able to do combos does not in my opinion “help separate players who know what they’re doing from players who are just mashing wildly” as Sleazoid stated. I know quite a few players who can hold their own by using solid fundamentals such as zoning/footsies/etc skills.

I also think it’s quite entertaining how “trained” players are these days to go for the biggest amount of hits they possibly can. In fact it’s one of the reasons SFxT is so horrible to watch these days and the remarkable amount of timeouts. Instead of people going for shorter, maximized damage combos, they are set in their mind the highest amount of hits = highest amount of damage which in most cases (in that game at least) just isn’t worth it. Why should I spend 3 bars doing an ultra fancy 20+ hit combo with multiple switch cancels in it when I can do a simple 6-7 hit combo into a super for 2 bars and maybe 10 less damage overall. I’m just using this game because it’s a good example to illustrate my point, not so you can all bandwagon with “hurrr-da-huuur he thinks SFxT is a good game” replies. Save that crap for the front page where the rest of the poop piles up.

Another reason combos have become such a large part of the gameplay these days is simple accessibility. Today we have home consoles where we can sit and play as long as we want. We have robust training modes with training dummies to practice on a whim. Back in the day you practiced combos while fighting real matches, or by spending an extra quarter or two on the 2-player side while noone else was around. Even then you only had until you almost killed the 2nd player and then switched sides so you could do it again before you had to spend another 50 cents to a dollar.

Anyways, just my 2 cents on the matter. feel free to debate the topic but at least make constructive and somewhat substantiated replies. Not this uneducated garbage you’ve already cluttered this thread up with.

9

This appeals to some players (and even I can somewhat understand). I recall fanatiq wrote something that made it’s way to the front page during the run up to the release of MvC3 describing how one of the reasons MvC2 was so loved was because of the “stress” one felt while playing matches, where a single mistake could lead to a combo into guard break into another combo into your whole team dead. Basically, the fightng game equivalent of high stakes all-in poker.

10

Reward for opening the opponent up. :looney:

11

The answers so far are pretty lacking. One reason is that the ability to cancel moves into other moves broadens the possibility space of the game to a ridiculous extent. cr.forward xx fireball is effectively a different move to both cr.forward and fireball on their own. Take something like cr.shortx2 xx super. You can’t replicate the function of this combo in any other way. Sometimes you want to do cr.short on its own and not do the super (like if they block). Sometimes you want to omit the cr.shorts and just go straight into the super (if you need an invincible reversal).

It also adds significant depth to the range game in that you generally need to be up close to do your big hit confirm combos, whereas you get less damage poking from far away.

Canceling/combos add tons of new options to the game basically. I think most fighting games would be pretty shallow without them.

edit: It’s also worth noting that “it’s fun” is probably the best game design justification of any feature and lots of people find it fun to do combos.

12

Well if you didn’t know combos were invented to cool down the CPU during play because the average projectile i.e Ryu fireball increases the CPU core tempreture by 1.928678923723 -C per fireball, so 50 fireballs in a single round could bring a computer to its knees, hence why people get up in arms about spamming because their computer/console is burning up like an asteroid on re-entry. So next your playing use a combo preserve gaming, also they doing combos burns more calories then zoning.

13

on topic though : imho, the appeal that combos have is intrinsically tied to the goal of bleeding away your opponents’ life bar and very much to reward you for your efforts of proper spacing, excellent footsies and strong fundamentals. it penalized the other player for not defending themselves properly. and they can obviously do the same to you but the prerequisites of landing that combo are pretty strict. plus, you had to be surgically precise to be able to pull off TOD’s and stuff, especially in a tournament match. or have GDLK skills like desk.

8P

14

Some other things that combos are good for:
They add more decision trees after a hit. Often times it’s interesting to sacrifice damage for the gamble of more damage. You cannot do this without combos.
Same with knockdown and more damage. While you might go for a knockdown (which causes a much higher chance for more damage), having the possibility of the same move and circumstance causing more guaranteed damage is always interesting. Suddenly the threat of a kill at certain life ranges come from a certain move. If there were an auto-combo that led into knockdown off that. that combo would no longer kill, changing the way the game is played.
More meter gain, same reason. Sac damage to have more options at your disposal. Doesn’t have to be super meter. For example, if stalling the combo gave you more time for a resource to come up off cooldown (like Tager spark).
Positioning, similar to above.

All of these are decisions that can be made in a combo and all are different possibilities off a single hit. Through the use of combos, one hit can end in multiple results without having a more convoluted system with much less freedom.

They also add longevity and player differentiation. With combos, there’s a single player aspect to a competitive game. This gives the game more life, more discoveries, and something to do with no one around. It gives players room to grow without requiring a second player. Players who are good at combos vs players that are bad at combos but really good at other aspects of the game make the game more interesting as a whole. Have more ways a player can make choices in a game because something so complex exists. Someone with strong fundamentals will play a character different than someone with strong execution. This makes the game more interesting to watch and players having ways to be different. This simply adds a wealth of interactions that not having combos cannot do.

They manifest pace. When you land a hit, often you get a combo which makes one player unable to act for a small period of time. What this is is the climax of interactions made between a player, when the combo ends, so does the climax and the situation resolves. When the situation resolves, the interactions return and the tensions rebuilds. This actually does a really good job of not overwhelming the player with tension and making them feel nervous, anxious or pressured constantly, and lets them take a breather and prepare or think briefly. This is commonly called a “tension curve” and is apparent in every kind of art that has time associated with it. Kind of like how a story is structured, a game has bosses and paces levels. The same principle is applied here in a 3 minute space.

They also make Hecatom look like a dummy-face.

Also they’re fun. Well, a lot of them are. Some aren’t. Usually the games with bad or boring combos die quickly though.

This has zero to do with a “combo” and everything to do with “damage”. The former being a subset of the latter. Damage is the reward, not the combo.

15

-Flashy to watch and sick to watch sick combos. There is a reason everyone loves to watch Marlinpie and Uryo or top players in MVC2 or Mishimas doing EWGF combos, you know how much execution and skill that stuff takes to execute, it also looks cool, if anyone and their mother can do it aka Wolverine in Marvel 3 the combo becomes boring to watch, SFxT is terrible in this regards too .

-Swag/Styling on your opponent, it’s cool learning a hard combo in the lab and to show off vs your friends some sick combo. Or simply showing off a novel combo that a character specialist is likely never to have seen before.

-Byproduct of frame data. In 2d fighters, having combos are a byproduct of the frame data itself with moves having hitstun and being able to continue hitting after that hitstun, imagine playing a 2d fighter with no hitstun meaning your hits have no consequences and removing lots of the frame trap/throw games.

-Allow for choice for the player. Do I go for the most optimal punish that has 2 1flinks? Or do I go for an easy punish that has a cancel but does 200 less stun and a 100 less damage? Do I want to use my meter in this combo, or do I save it up for the next opportunity? Do I use my Xfactor or 3 bars to kill Hulk, or should I reset him and kill him that way?

  • In line with that, it allows for more reset situations, after lk tatsu with akuma, do I go for sweep to set up a better setup? Do I go for an aerial reset into demon flip? Do I maximize my damage by going for DP? If I’m playing Bison or Balrog do I stop my combo and go for a tick throw to set him up for frame traps later on? Marvel 2 and 3 have also very open systems with lots of reset situations at any time during the combo which adds to the mind games and fun of playing, which is why being in a Marvel combo is nerve wracking and still adrenaline pumping while it’s zzz in Tekken or xT where there are no resets besides the oki. People hate on the exchange system in Marvel 3, and for good reason, but Capcom actually put it in to have more things to worry about during a combo and it adds more adrenaline into the game. In the SF4 system in particular you can also leave a gap in your combo and drop it on purpose in order for your opponent’s mashed reversal to come out(Uryo does this occasionally after tatsus) and get a reset max punish, this also applies to Magneto on phoenix teams using hypergrab resets after baiting out the exchange S.

-Rewards higher execution and more time with the game. It allows the better player to differentiate himself from the rest, will KOG or Yokuboo who go with stLP into crMK (1flink) in footsies get more mileage out of their footsies over some random Hawk player who uses stLP, that’s definitely true. Will a Zero who has LL down get more mileage out of stray hits into ToDs 100% vs some random Zero who ends his combos into Rekoha for 600-700k? That is for sure.

Edit: It also rewards proper hit confirming and adds a place into hit confirms. A proper Fei Long can hit confirm crMP on counterhit into LP rekka link, a good cammy would hit confirm crHP into Ultra 1 counterhit. Having a more open combo system allows godlike Magneto/Zero players to confirm air to airs off really awkward angles. It rewards the player who can differentiate between hits and blocks, a Cammy who drops her link or doesnt confirm on block and goes to spiral arrow is simply dead and is open to any punish imaginable, vs a Cammy who realizes her moves are blocked and continues to frame trap/tick throw.

Another important aspect is that it rewards proper punishment timing. In Tekken 6 in particular, let us say you block something thats -15f, you can choose to go for your 10f jab punisher, it’s hit confirmable generally, safe, does 24-30ish damage, and leads to a frame trap situation, OR you can go for your 15f launcher which is extremely unsafe and is punishable by another launcher on block, not hit confirmable, and requires just frame timing to punish your opponent with but leads to 60+ damage and much stronger oki setups. The risk-reward in the decision is interesting, and it rewards the player that goes into the training mode and practices his frame tight punishes and maximizes his damage. SF4 does poorly however in this aspect with it’s large reversal timing, allowing players to mash out special moves very easily for huge damage punishes with FADCs or simply churning that butter, while as it is godlike to watch a Mishima do a double Just Frame EWGF to get a proper punish on a -13 or -14 move.

Games with Burst and Breaker systems also add a extremely interesting dynamic to the combos and meter management. Is it worth breaking out of the combo now? Is it worth using my meter/burst to get out of this combo? Should I bait my opponent into using his burst and punishing it or stealing his meter for it? It adds an interesting dynamic to games like TvC/Guilty Gear/MK.

16

It’s the best way of taking control away from your opponent. Every game has this, even those without combos.

17

Combos exist now because it is a simple risk reward system, albeit mostly easy at lower levels with a rising skill cap the higher level your play becomes.

For example, I could hit you once with no risk after the initial movement, or I could risk an execution error allowing you to block my attack and leave me at bad spacing or at frame disadvantage and eating a combo, the reward would be more damage for the aggressor.

There are many aesthetic reasons as well, or meta reasons why combos exist, a lot of it has to do with us as players influencing these companies.

You could consider all angles on this subject for days.
Damage Scaling
Psychological Reasons
Financial Reasons

18

@Ratio 4 Cerebella
if i’m not mistaken, one point of the thread was about the merits of combos doing X amount of damage versus a single hit doing X amount of damage. i merely emphasized that combos do add overall damage to supplement damage incurred from footsies and such. you’re reading what i posted as to how you would like to understand it. prior to damage scaling, hit stun deterioration and infinite prevention being implemented to modern fighting games, doing high damage combos [even if it was a 2 or 3 hit one] was how you won a match. look at XvSF. i would have agreed with your other points but all your pseudo-intellectual lamentation made me realize that it would be better if you and CCCOMBOOOOBREAKER!!! had a chance to sit down and have a meaningful chat.

combos are legit. just ask Combofiend.

8P

19

This entire post is words strung together to sound smart.

20

in real fighting you can perfrom combinations. so why on earth shouldnt games (meant for fun) have this quality also? if all you had where single hits then where’s the combat realism? also you might aswell remove light punch and kick, and have just hard punch and kick if you only want 1 hit at a time cos’ if you understand frame data, you would know this is a silly questions as combos can not be avoided in complex fighting games. just look at a simple game like SF, as you said, it wasnt intended but understanding frame data you will know why combos were discovered. also personally a game/s without combos would be so friggin borin. All complexity would be lost in fighting games… sequels would also be out of the question as its basically the same thing. if there are fighting games today without combos… you can understand why i’ve never heard of them:)

21

I’m sorry, does it not make sense to you?

If you were just being a dick try this:
Instead of attempting to insult someone, try being constructive and elaborating on why you don’t agree with me.