(I came to this thread after trying to find out how easy it was to retaliate against Sakura close s.HP xx HP fireball or Ken d.HK xx LP roll.)
What’s the first possible frame in a normal move when you’re able to cancel into a special? Is it active hit frame one? I don’t think so. See my Sakura example below…
Sakura:
close s.HP
1100, 900 -11/-11
3/8/27
23 block/hit stun
the math (assuming normal is canceled on hit frame one): 27 recovery + (8 - 1) canceled hit frames = 34 —> 34 + -11 = 23
close s.HK
1200, 1100 -6/-6
4/7/23
23 block/hit stun
Doing either ‘close s.HK xx qcf+HP’ or ‘close s.HP xx qcf+HP’ makes no difference. In both cases the opponent will be unable to move for 23 frames before the fireball hits. Now the HP fireball doesn’t until frame 22. Assuming you cancel the normal on hit frame one, theoretically, this combo should work! 23 is a larger number than 22 obviously. However, this combo does not work…
The conclusion I’m leaning towards is that normal moves cannot be canceled on the first hit frame.
It is possible to use a reversal roll to escape Sakura ‘close s.HP xx qcf+HP’ (and remember rolls have no vulnerable startup frames too). Based on background information like that, I want to say normals aren’t cancelable until frame two. Can anybody back me up?
This combo does works easily on a counter hit. Heavy attacks get an additional +4 on counter hits. In the close s.HP example, -11 would become -7 on the counter hit. 34 + -7 = 27. 27 - 22 = 5. On a counter hit s.HP xx HP fireball, there is a -5 window for the opponent to escape. In other words, escape is not possible. The combo works. (Again, the -5 number I got is assuming the s.HP was canceled on hit frame one…)
Ken:
d.HP
1100, 700 -13/-13
3/11/26
23 block/hit stun
d.HK
1300 down/-15
6/6/35
25 block stun
Ken’s ‘d.HK xx qcb+LP’ is better than his ‘d.HP xx qcb+LP’. If you look at the numbers (and assuming first hit frame cancel), d.HK stuns for 2 frames longer than the d.HP does. Ken’s qcb+LP lasts for 35 frames total. If Ken theoretically stuns the opponent for 25 frames after a canceled d.HK, he should be at -10 (25 - 35 = -10) after ‘d.HK xx qcb+LP’
d.MK
900 -1/-1
4/6/17
21 block/hit stun
Look at the data for Ken’s medium attack. Canceling qcb+LP from one of the heavy attacks is obviously better than canceling from a medium right?
Iori:
close s.HP
1200, 1100 0/0
3/6/24
29 block/hit stun (!?)
Rock:
close s.HK
1200 -2/-2
4/8/20
25 block/hit stun
close s.HP
1100 -10/-10
4/3/31
23 block/hit stun
Again, see the difference with the math? s.HK makes the opponent unable to move longer than s.HP does. Thus ‘close c.HK xx rage run shift’ > ‘close s.HP xx rage run shift’.
Vega (claw):
d.HK
1000 down/-14
8/9/29
23 block stun
Now note this move is NOT cancelable in anyway. But if you apply the math as if it were…
(29 + 8 = 37 —> 37 + -14 = 23)
You come up with a familiar number. Vega d.HK is a 23 stun move.
Certain characters all have certain moves that are better than others for stunning the opponent while that move is canceled into something else. I just need to know exactly what frame a normal move can be canceled into a special so I can get some more conclusive information. Exactly how much of a window I have to escape Sakura ‘close s.HP xx qcf+HP’ in particular. Anybody?
edit: tried to make post less confusing