21

Nice post…

As far as KOF characters running on anime rules I’d have to say that that award has to go more to GG. KOF characters usually show some type of novel way of thinking that gets them to the top. example: Rock Howard learned to play a violin instantly by just picking the damn thing up. It’s raw and rare form of talent. The Fatal Fury(another novel way of thought by which the game of the same name gets it’s title) is another novel way of thought that allows Terry Bogard to hustle and bustle his way to the top. It’s basically ruckus, street insanity, and a raw form of madness. …Why Terry wears it across his hat.

So get this, in Lantis’ guide it acutally states that Terry beat Scroll Geese by unleashing the Fatal Fury(whatever that may be / I already gave my speculation)

Talent also takes away the notion of Ryu defeated more people so he is better or Terry has defeated more people so he is better.

Terry - eats Mc Donalds, Dodger Dogs and other types of fast food. Chases around Blue Mary

Ken - is a family man. Has fun on the beach with his wife and son.(might I add that Ken Masters does not need to train as much as Ryu because of talent)

Ryu - trains all day

Andy - trains all day.

So it stands; Terry defeats Andy and Ryu defeats Ken. But also let me state this; if Ken decided to train more(decided is the key word) he could easily equal out if not topple Ryu. Andy can train all he wants and would never equal out Terry, why? Because Terry learned the Fatal Fury as a child growing up on the rough streets of Southtown(Andy flew to Japan to learn Kobujitsu). He took a move for every pastime he had and incorporated it into his self taught fighting style. For instance; Power Dunk was incorporated because of his love for basket ball and Crack Shoot is what he used to break down those petty train signs that got in way while hopping trains. He learned this and how to incoporate his life lessons into martial art while in Southtown streets, where the secrets of fighting are made.

(Taken from one of my old posts in the KOF Storyline Thread)

Has anyone ever thought about the possibility of Terry actually being a superior fighter when compared to Geese Howard?

The truth is that Terry continually beats him, so most most likely Terry is the superior duelist. Sure, Geese may posses an evil and dominating aura about him and this “Wild Ambition”(as Rasa stated), but this doesn’t necessarily place Geese on a higher hierarchy fighting wise than Terry, as well as it doesn’t necessarily place SNK under this “makes main character win for no apparent reason just because” category.

I was always under the impression that Terry was the superior fighter because of the fact that he shows a lot more enthusiasm toward fighting than Geese, as well as the fact that Terry seems to be more into his image(more into his self-actualization to be precise). Terry is simply doing his own thing, being the lone wolf, living out his life in honesty and trying to do nothing more than simply better him self(his self-actualization rather than a false image). So on the whole, Terry’s image, or shall I say persona, is more defined. Which in turn allows Terry to express himself more, actualize his potential clearer(hell everyone calls him the ‘lone wolf’ or the ‘hungry wolf’), express himself clearer, and define his technique over all better than Geese could on the whole.

I’d have to say that Terry was(or is) simply a more developed character than Geese, which proves(partly) that he should be the superior fighter.

…All of this while Geese was blinded by ambition(which was his drive as much as it was his downfall), and the desire for strife and contention.

I’m sure, though, that Terry and Geese were(are) about equal as far as sheer will power and persaverance goes. ‘About’, as this category is a little one sided in Geese’s favor…

The whole “wild ambition” and the likes of Geese’s will being implanted in Rock almost makes me want to scracth the above sentence though…

Two birds with one stone!

I can guarantee you and everybody else in this thread that K’9999 in on GG levels.
He’s already on 3 levels of power(3 DBZ-esque power ups / the blue haired one is his third form). He’s basically the same person as Tetsuo and I’m afraid we all know what HE can do(Tetsuo is his 1st form, white haired form is the same guy from the comics, and blue haired form is K’9999, the end of the world). in his 3rd form Leona couldn’t even do any damage to him at all. After all, how many people in fighting games to date have full screen(as in their supers take up the whole screen) supers:

Here you go:

Full screen supers:

Street Fighter = Gill

KOF = K’9999, Kula(Freeze Execution), Zero and Orochi(GIll-esque The Bright Light)

22

Yeah, so basically Terry wins because of the Fatal Fury and Ryu wins because of his steadfast devotion to the fight.

Fatal Fury = an amalgamation of different talents put together by Terry himself back when he was roaming the streets of Southtown(Rock you! Burning! Live wire; Go Bang! etc.)

steadfast devotion to the fight = The Fight Is All

23

“As far as KOF characters running on anime rules I’d have to say that that award has to go more to GG. KOF characters usually show some type of novel way of thinking that gets them to the top. example: Rock Howard learned to play a violin instantly by just picking the damn thing up. It’s raw and rare form of talent. The Fatal Fury(another novel way of thought by which the game of the same name gets it’s title) is another novel way of thought that allows Terry Bogard to hustle and bustle his way to the top. It’s basically ruckus, street insanity, and a raw form of madness. …Why Terry wears it across his hat.”

For Guilty Gear it only runs on Anime rules when it comes to regular human beings being able to hang with uber powered Gears. GG is much more simplistic with it’s battles. Sol and/or Ky are stronger than the Boss, they win. Or they take pity on their opponent and walk away. It’s really simple.

“So get this, in Lantis’ guide it acutally states that Terry beat Scroll Geese by unleashing the Fatal Fury(whatever that may be / I already gave my speculation)”

That’s Anime rules 101. Character is way more powerful than said character. But through believing in the power of their friends, a strong sense of justice or some hidden power within they are able to beat the villain. Check the Fatal Fury movie for example. Terry’s fighting the God of Mars. A God. But because he hears the voice of his dead girlfriend he gains the abilities to win. If it was just that he was stronger than the God he would of defeated him without having to resort to such a call from beyond. Stuff like that doesn’t happen in SF. Terry for all intents and purposes is just becoming “Super Saiyajin 6” to win the fight because the story demands he wins.

“Talent also takes away the notion of Ryu defeated more people so he is better or Terry has defeated more people so he is better.”

Not in SF. In SF winning doesn’t mean everything. It’s weither you do your best and give it your all that counts. This is most echoed in Ryu’s transition during the Zero series. He no longer wants to defeat Sagat or Gouki at all costs and risk his life doing so, such thinking leads to the Satsui No Hadou. His journey is to be the best fighter that he can be and he continues to strive for that.

"Terry - eats Mc Donalds, Dodger Dogs and other types of fast food. Chases around Blue Mary

Ken - is a family man. Has fun on the beach with his wife and son.(might I add that Ken Masters does not need to train as much as Ryu because of talent)"

Not necesarily. Ken does train himself at any given time, if it weren’t so he couldn’t keep up with Ryu at all. He just has other things on his mind is all.

"Ryu - trains all day

Andy - trains all day.

So it stands; Terry defeats Andy and Ryu defeats Ken. But also let me state this; if Ken decided to train more(decided is the key word) he could easily equal out if not topple Ryu."

Not really. First of all if Ken trained all day, didn’t have a wife, didn’t have a kid, he’d basically be another Ryu. And you’d have a 1/3rd Japanese character beating a Japanese character Ryu, not gonna happen with Japan’s intense pride, they’d still keep Ken and a #2 guy. You might as well wait for Lucky Glauber to win KOF…

“Andy can train all he wants and would never equal out Terry, why? Because Terry learned the Fatal Fury as a child growing up on the rough streets of Southtown(Andy flew to Japan to learn Kobujitsu). He took a move for every pastime he had and incorporated it into his self taught fighting style. For instance; Power Dunk was incorporated because of his love for basket ball and Crack Shoot is what he used to break down those petty train signs that got in way while hopping trains. He learned this and how to incoporate his life lessons into martial art while in Southtown streets, where the secrets of fighting are made.”

He can’t beat Terry because it’s Terry’s game, it’s just that simple. (On the basic level Ken vs Ryu boils down to this two, it’s Ryu’s game that’s how it is but the fundamentals are different). You take two real people. You have one train all day and you have another one eat Hot Dogs and Play Video Games all the time. Who would win? The person who trains all day. If “Fatal Fury” were something that was tangeable or real on some level like ki manipulation you might have something, but even people with real ki manipulation that can do things like extinguish the flames from candles have to train vigorously.

"(Taken from one of my old posts in the KOF Storyline Thread)

Has anyone ever thought about the possibility of Terry actually being a superior fighter when compared to Geese Howard?

The truth is that Terry continually beats him, so most most likely Terry is the superior duelist. Sure, Geese may posses an evil and dominating aura about him and this “Wild Ambition”(as Rasa stated), but this doesn’t necessarily place Geese on a higher hierarchy fighting wise than Terry, as well as it doesn’t necessarily place SNK under this “makes main character win for no apparent reason just because” category.

I was always under the impression that Terry was the superior fighter because of the fact that he shows a lot more enthusiasm toward fighting than Geese, as well as the fact that Terry seems to be more into his image(more into his self-actualization to be precise). Terry is simply doing his own thing, being the lone wolf, living out his life in honesty and trying to do nothing more than simply better him self(his self-actualization rather than a false image). So on the whole, Terry’s image, or shall I say persona, is more defined. Which in turn allows Terry to express himself more, actualize his potential clearer(hell everyone calls him the ‘lone wolf’ or the ‘hungry wolf’), express himself clearer, and define his technique over all better than Geese could on the whole.

I’d have to say that Terry was(or is) simply a more developed character than Geese, which proves(partly) that he should be the superior fighter.

…All of this while Geese was blinded by ambition(which was his drive as much as it was his downfall), and the desire for strife and contention.

I’m sure, though, that Terry and Geese were(are) about equal as far as sheer will power and persaverance goes. ‘About’, as this category is a little one sided in Geese’s favor…

The whole “wild ambition” and the likes of Geese’s will being implanted in Rock almost makes me want to scracth the above sentence though…"

I’m not sure when Lantis wrote this exactly but I have a Tier listing he did of all of the KOF characters and he put Geese above Terry. A few other SNK experts I’ve spoken with have uttered the same. Though you do have Terry defeating Geese time and again so you can say he’s stronger if you want in a sense, it’s here where there is some speculatory room of sorts I suppose. Though just the fact that Geese (at least once) has fallen out a building and survived tells you that on paper he is stronger. Doesn’t really matter who is stronger on paper, because a character will gain imense power when the time is right. Ideally Orochi can wipe out everyone in KOF, he is a God and has been granted the power to do so. But their is a ritual that involves someone from the Kusanagi clan, someone from the Yagami clan and someone from Chizuru’s clan being able to defeat him. If Shingo, Dan Hibiki and Norimaro were the fated 3 Sacred treasures they would have the power to defeat Orochi. Orochi loses but that doesn’t mean he’s weaker than anyone, he is the strongest character in KOF by far, the only true God. But in time of need the stories heroes will have what it takes to defeat the villain.

"Two birds with one stone!

I can guarantee you and everybody else in this thread that K’9999 in on GG levels.
He’s already on 3 levels of power(3 DBZ-esque power ups / the blue haired one is his third form). He’s basically the same person as Tetsuo and I’m afraid we all know what HE can do(Tetsuo is his 1st form, white haired form is the same guy from the comics, and blue haired form is K’9999, the end of the world). in his 3rd form Leona couldn’t even do any damage to him at all. After all, how many people in fighting games to date have full screen(as in their supers take up the whole screen) supers:

Here you go:

Full screen supers:

Street Fighter = Gill

KOF = K’9999, Kula(Freeze Execution), Zero and Orochi(GIll-esque The Bright Light)
[/quote]
"

I’m not going to go into K9999 because the entire thing is mute. He will probably never show up in another KOF game as SNKP has eluded to most likely because fans don’t like him because he is a blatant rip off. I don’t really deal what a character can and might do, I deal with what a character has done (or at least is about to do before they get smacked). K9999 lost KOF, and even if he didn’t and he came back you know that Kyo, K’, whoever else is the hero in said game is going to knock him out with Anime rules. And if he’s really like Tetsuo he’s just gonna blow his Ass up anyway, no way KOF will have him destroy a chunk of the moon or destroy part of Japan the home country, forget it. Now blowing up Southtown on the other hand… :rofl:

24

Makes enough sense…

…True but I wouldn’t take the Fatal Fury movie at canonical value.

Terry is basically the same way. Re-read my post taken from the KOF Storyline Thread.

" was always under the impression that Terry was the superior fighter because of the fact that he shows a lot more enthusiasm toward fighting than Geese, as well as the fact that Terry seems to be more into his image(more into his self-actualization to be precise). Terry is simply doing his own thing, being the lone wolf, living out his life in honesty and trying to do nothing more than simply better him self(his self-actualization rather than a false image). So on the whole, Terry’s image, or shall I say persona, is more defined. Which in turn allows Terry to express himself more, actualize his potential clearer(hell everyone calls him the ‘lone wolf’ or the ‘hungry wolf’), express himself clearer, and define his technique over all better than Geese could on the whole.

I’d have to say that Terry was(or is) simply a more developed character than Geese, which proves(partly) that he should be the superior fighter.

…All of this while Geese was blinded by ambition(which was his drive as much as it was his downfall), and the desire for strife and contention."

You see this is where I strongly disagree with you. Shingo, Dan Hibiki, and Norimaro could never defeat Orochi if they were fated the 3 sacred treasures.
That’s akin to saying that Sakura could beat Sagatinflicted the scar if she had the Satsui No Hado intent. Well, SHE WASN’T EVEN NOMINATED AS A SATSUI NO HADO CANIDATE JUST AS SHINGO, DAN, AND NORIMARO WEREN’T NOMINATED AS THE 3 SACRED TREASURES.

Could Shingo come up with No Style in less than a year and can Dan over power Orochi’s Riot of the Blood with just his mind power alone… ? Kyo and Iori accomplish things just as how Ryu accomplishes things.

25

From this point on I am officially making this thread a VS topic FAQ or Q and A sheet

I have a problem. My problem is the fact that these matches are now about who can destroy what instead who has the better fighting smarts. Sure destroying things is important but what about actual fighting smarts, statistics, and allocation… ? My belief is that the best way to settle these matches would be to allocate every fighters statistics starting form sakura to Ryu from Yuri to Orochi. Take for instance my Hadoken allocation of attributes. I figure that if we allocate the attributes of GG, SF, and KOF then we can get past the whole DBZ anime perspective. See where I’m going with this… ? Hell, somene might even want to make an FAQ of it.

So, starting with Ryu it would be:

Ryu

Hadoken - extension of fist, drains ki directly(so basically I’m assuming that they give up a small pint of ki to project an larger quantity of it), better heght than Sonic boom, 3 levels of speed control - level 1 = lower damage, slow speed, fast recovery, longer charge, weaker stun, drains a small pint of ki, travels furthest, low density/ level 2 = average damage, average speed, average recovery, average charge, average stun, drains average ki, average density, travels average / level 3 = higher damgae, fast speed, weaker recovery, shorter charge, better stun, drains alot of ki, travels shortest, best density - corner traps, fake hadoken,

Ryu - Shoryuken - level 1 - less energy, shortest jump, least power, average recovery, shortest instant hit, shortest guard break, shortest unblockable, shortest invincibility, shortest long range, weakest critical hit, shortest accuracy level 2 - mid energy, mid jump, mid power, low recover, mid instant hit, mid guard break, mid unblockable, mid invincibility, mid long range, mid accuracy, mid critical hit level 3 - high energy, high jump, high power, worst recovery, highest instant hit, high unblockable, high guard break, goes through defense, max long range, max critical hit, max accuracy, max invincible
Tatsumaki(on it’s way)

This way we can actually gauge the fighting strengths and attriutes of each fighter instead of just spouting"Super Saiyan 4 Goku is better than K’9999 because of such and such’s power level" See where I’m going with this… ?

Actually, screw the from Sakura to Ryu from Yuri to Orochi business because face it; not all of these characters(guys like Fei Long and such) can even do the super moves that they claim to do in their games(SF Alpha 3 for instance). So instead I’m just sticking with the main caracters of each series for now.

Street Fighter - Ryu, Ken, Akuma, Gill, Oro

King of Fighters - Ryo,Takuma, Robert, Kyo, Iori, Terry, K’, Kula, K’9999, Rock, Geese, Goenitz, Igniz, Krizalid, Ash, Orochi

Guilty Gear - Sol-Badguy, Slayer, Ky, I-no,

So from this point on I am officially making this thread a VS topic FAQ or Q and A sheet.

more to come

26

I know that the Fatal Fury movie is not canon of course, but it works on SNK principles pretty strongly. Heck it predated the entire KOF series, even the scrolls and a bunch of other stuff that eventually worked it’s way in there anyway like Gods and Elemental users. I could probably go on and on but for the most part all of the SF Animes work on the SF principals too. Though none of them are really canon, I just use it as an example because a lot of KOF stuff is murky to deal with to say the least, you can only really deal with main characters and the same scenarios over and over again, SF is like that too for the most part.

Terry vs. Geese is an opinion thing on my part and a few others when it boils down to it.

Okay, a slight joke about Dan, Shingo, and Norimaro but that’s basically how it is. The legend fortells of the three sacred treasures being able to seal Orochi. Legends in stuff like this, games, animes, manga, tend to come true. Of course if they were the sacred treasures all three naturally wouldn’t be that weak. But that’s how it works. Orochi could single handedly defeat Kyo, Iori, Chizuru and the rest of the KOF universe in one on one fights.

Sakura doesn’t have SNH like you said. Ryu beat Sagat with it only be a cheap shot when he put his hand out to help up Ryu from the ground. SNH is not a legend. There’s not some ancient scroll that says “A little female warrior will defeat some Tiger Man” to give her the power to do so. It’s not like the three sacred treasures and Orochi. Well… if Capcom never resolves Gill’s prophecy than this kind of stuff in SF doesn’t mean anything anyways…

Heh, be careful how you word things. Vs Threads are not allowed at SRK. But this place is moderated lightly anyways. You can analyze as much stuff as you want but when you get into “this is why this fictional character is stronger than this fictional character” it just leads to a big old fanboy favorite nerd fight and a closed thread… That’s why SRK has the Battle Poll every year so we can work all the Nerd fights out of our system for a year… :rofl:

But for SF I would definitly toss in storyline Tier 1-4 characters. Especially since Ken is storyline wise Tier 3 and some of our favorites are Tier 4. So that’s something like (using Japanese names) Gouki, Gill, Oro, Vega(cape), Sagat, Ryu, Q, Ken, Gen, Rose, Nash, Guile, Chun-Li, Hugo, Balrog(ninja) and Twelve.

Oh, I would use Mr. Karate instead of Takuma. Takuma is when he holds back, Mr. Karate’s the real deal. Maybe I would of cut back on some of the flame powered hybrids and let in more of the eight heads of the Orochi, got Ryo and Robert out of there since we have Mr. Karate who’s way above both but that’s just me.

All of the SFers can do super moves, unless you mean SF1 rejects, if they have it in the games they can do them. Heck even wimpy Dan can throw a fireball. It’s only when you get to stuff like custom combos with blue shadows that things get really hazy. But Rose, Yun and Yang can create shadow images too so such a thing exists in said world.

27

In the VS Series Multiverse, Sakura has satsui no hadou. … Either that or a sunburn. (Sunburned Sakura; was that in MSHvSF or one of the EX games?)

Also, MSH Thanos is probably fighting game God.

28

Yeah it was something like suntaned Sakura.

Thanos had the infinity gems. Sort of a crazy character to stick into MVC2 who can alter reality however he wants… oh well makes it fun I guess. “Eat a Shoryuken God Bitch!”

29

Is SNK bending the rules? The constant medium and child prodigies

You know that is why Iori hates Kyo(because all he does is live like a normal child all day and never trains). It’s not so much that it is Terry’s or Ryu’s game so much that it is just that we have not found the constant medium that allows two or more people to compare characters from different series.

Iori - was put through the most rigorous, hardcore training as a child. Was deprived of basic childhood needs in order to toughen him up. Iori basically has a high threshold for pain. I guessing that his parents and clansmembers saw his high pain threshold and exploited it in one of the most ruthless ways possible. Probably lived the worst childhood of anyone of all time.

Kyo - lives the life of a previlaged bachelor. Free stuff, easy living enivronment, parents that buy him everything he desires, wealthy family(The Yagami were poor and the Kusanagi were a wealthy clan). Kyo’s childhood was lived free of any hardships or problems. His life is so damn easy that it drives Iori insane. Probably lived the easiest childhood of anyone of all time.

Simple guidline, is it not? I ask you who would you want to back you up in a fight and you’d say Iori simply because of the rigorous training he went through as a child, right?

(not that Kyo actually **plays video games **and eats hot dogs like Terry Bogard but I’m just saying)

Of course, the person who trains all day should win, shouldn’t he? Wrong, there is more to life than just training to achive your max potentials(this is where talent comes in).

Talent and fortune- trains less to keep up with the game and an instinctual feel for battle. If Kyo and Ryu were to fight as children Kyo would win instantlly seeing as how that experience(what Ryu uses) increases with time and training(meaning a young Ryu low on experience) and talent is raw manifest. Sure, talent can be increased but what is used to increase talent is akin why Hitler though the Germans were superior to every other race. It’s like saying how some people are able to come up with their moves instantly(Kyo / basically already KNOWING their techniques before **KNOWING **them) and other people have to train to come up witht techniques. See what I’m saying… ? Some people are talented(Ken Masters, for instance) and then some people are just previlaged to be fortunate(Kyo). It’s akin to how Rock Howard is able to play the violin instantly without ever pickng one up before or ever seeing a violin instructer… This is what SNK wanted people to see in their games and characters, child prodigies(not the anime belive in yourself and you can overcome all obstacles type of thing) Talent, fortune, and this prodigy-esque ability that I’m talking about is the ability to defeat an opponent with no experience under the belt at all(but you still have to know and digest your talent). With talent, it is also easier to sift through strategical battle calculations(things just come to them instantly).

child prodigies = Kyo, K’, and Rock Howard

So with this, we can say that Street Fighter is a game where fighters train to gain experience to defeat their opponents and that KOF is a game where child prodigies reign. The lies in the fact that everyone sees KOF from Street Fighter perspective instead of a KOF perspective. Seeing SF from a KOF perspective is just like saying that Ryu and the rest of the Street Fighters are too old and win because they fight too much. Seeing KOF from a SF perspective is like saying that the KOF characters are to young and win by horrible anime standards(when in a actuality they are child prodigies) That’s just how it is.

(more to come)

30

[quote=Susano-o]

“Talent and fortune- trains less to keep up with the game and an instinctual feel for battle. If Kyo and Ryu were to fight as children Kyo would win instantlly seeing as how that experience(what Ryu uses) increases with time and training(meaning a young Ryu low on experience) and talent is raw manifest. Sure, talent can be increased but what is used to increase talent is akin why Hitler though the Germans were superior to every other race. It’s like saying how some people are able to come up with their moves instantly(Kyo / basically already KNOWING their techniques before **KNOWING **them) and other people have to train to come up witht techniques. See what I’m saying… ? Some people are talented(Ken Masters, for instance) and then some people are just previlaged to be fortunate(Kyo). It’s akin to how Rock Howard is able to play the violin instantly without ever pickng one up before or ever seeing a violin instructer… This is what SNK wanted people to see in their games and characters, child prodigies(not the anime belive in yourself and you can overcome all obstacles type of thing) Talent, fortune, and this prodigy-esque ability that I’m talking about is the ability to defeat an opponent with no experience under the belt at all(but you still have to know and digest your talent). With talent, it is also easier to sift through strategical battle calculations(things just come to them instantly).”

No, see, you missed my point.

My example was of real people that exist in real life.

When you are talking about fighting, actual fighters and so forth, being a prodigy doesn’t mean anything. Stuff like that may get you ahead in life if you are a child prodigy and gifted at math and what not but if you slack off in training some one who is training everyday to beat you is going to kick your Ass. As you yourself said, being a prodigy only works in KOF land, it doesn’t apply in real life nor does it apply to SF. Who is pound a pound a better fighter and has more raw talent, Mike Tyson or Buster Douglas? The answer is obvious, Mike Tyson. Tyson went through a bunch of problems, slacked off and got his Ass handed to him. Natural talent, fortune, they will only get you so far.

In reality and not in KOF/Anime land everyone looses at something. Nobody wins all of the time except for extremely rare circumstances dealing with the bajillion people that have existed throughout all time. There is always someone better than you and there is no way that you can be the best at something forever, people get old, their bodies change, life happens, things happen.

Why is Mohamad Ali considered the greatest boxer of all time? He didn’t win all of the time, but he trained, came back, and defeated everyone that defeated him prior. It’s not your wins that define you all of the time, no Boxer stays undefeated forever. It’s your losses that can make you great.

There are plenty of Animes, plenty of games too where you have some characters win all of the time. It’s sort of a Japan thing, people are stressed to be the best at everything, so naturally there’s a desire to follow fictional characters that win all of the time or even the vast majority of the time. In America it’s not always the case. True, you have characters like Superman who are perfect in every way and for the most part are not really going to lose. But you have plenty of characters like Spider-Man, the X-Men, Spawn and plenty more where in many scenarios not only do they get the snot beat out of them but you wouldn’t want to be a lot of these characters outside of their costumed lives. For many years Spider-Man’s High School Life sucked big time. The X-Men are discriminated by everybody. And Spawn… well… you wouldn’t want to be Spawn, trust me. Characters like these grow on us and we identify with their struggle. But that’s a cultural difference there and there are plenty of things in SF that are geared towards America, SF2 only came out because Capcom USA wanted them to make a sequel to SF1 for the most part. In SF, I can’t stress this enough but winning is not everything. Nearly everyone in SF catches a beat down here and there.

Gouki - All evidence points to him loosing to Gen in SFZ2. All though Capcom’s not going to take an official stance on it. He let Ryu defeat him.
Gill - Let Alex defeat him.
Ryu - Lost to Ken in SFZ2. Lost to Sakura in SFZ2 going easy on her, letting her win. lost to Vega to off set the storyline of him being brainwashed in SFZ3. Lost to Sagat while he was brainwashed. Lost to Oro in SF3.
Ken - Lost to Vega in SFZ3. Lost to Ryu in SF3.
Chun-Li - Lost to Vega in SFZ3.
Urien - Let Chun-Li beat her, she impressed him enough for her to let her adopted kid go.
Guile - Lost to Vega in SFZ3.
Rose - Lost to Vega in SFZ3.
Cammy - Lost to Vega in SFZ3.
Balrog - Lost to Cammy who he didn’t fight seriously. Lost to Rose.
Alex - Lost to Ryu.

And there are plenty of more losses I’m missing out on I’m sure. It works differently, the battles and outcomes are grounded more in reality than SF. SF is not about Ryu kicking people’s Asses without breaking a sweat, it never has been. It’s about his struggle and dedication to be the best that he can be. This is not insulting KOF in anyway, the two franchises work on different principles. Most fighting game franchises work on their own principles, that goes across the board. Take Darkstalkers. If you are born into a Super Strong Class you are extremely powerful. If you are born into an extremely weak class train all you want there’s nothing you can do about it, Demitri’s gonna anally rape you. In Guilty Gear a human being with one hand can train hard enough to be able to hang in their with God Like Gears. Take Rival Schools which is much closer to SNKP in terms of battles(and RS is heavily influenced by various Animes to boot). When the time is needed the main character will be overcome by a strong sense of Justice and pull out the win. So when you mix both worlds you have to first establish which world you are in and which principles you are going with. Look at any of the crossover comics. In the Sakura Manga where Sakura fought Kyo she kicked his Ass. Sakura takes her training much more seriously then Kyo, she has the edge. In the Capcom vs. Snk hong Kong comics Capcom beat the snot out of KOF characters. In the Hong Kong SVC comic Ryu is everybody’s whooping boy until the very end. This entire crossover notion is like Flash vs. Quicksilver in the Avengers vs. JLA crossover. Flash enters the Marvel World, the Speed Force doesn’t exst in the Marvel World, Quicksilver wins. Quicksilver goes to the DC world where the Speed Force exists, he loses. The JLA perform good deeds in the Marvel World and people throw things at them and call them “Mutie! Freak! Get the Hell out of here!” The Avengers perform good deads in the DC world and people run up to them, start taking their autographs and offer them movie deals. Different Worlds, different scenarios, different principles, that’s why a lot of these vs. discussions tend to go nowhere and often end with the person picking the character they like better. Well at least in comic books you can draw upon hundreds of battles and scenarios where in fighting games at the end of the day, you have to few scenarios you can pick from and very few specifics to really draw a conclusion. In the end, these are games, and that’s what the crossovers are for, let the gamers decide and may the best players win.

31

What about Bruce Lee? He trained everday, sure, but what about Shaolin monks who train more than he did? He said that he was the best fighter in the world but no one every took him up on his word and challenged him. Know what I mean… ? Bruce Lee was the most recent person to ever create a martial art and have it accepted into the Black Belt Hall of Fame and he wasn’t even 35. …That’s raw talent manifest!

Kyo losses as well. He lost to Goenitz at the beginning of KOF '96, trained(something he rarely does), came back, and had to finish the duel with Iori. This is when he made his transition from and projectile based character to an up-close character. Things change in KOF as well(the point I’m making is that these two series can be compared together).

The thing about Fatal Fury is that Terry came in the best, period. KOF on the other hand is different. It is about child prodigies and mythology(the eight headed serpent Orochi, the Shinto Sun & the Moon, etc.). The anti-social misfit J-rocker(the moon) and the previlaged fortunate aristocrat(the sun)

…But you know what I like about KOF? The style. It’s all about the Armani, style, and Classy gestures(King, Rugal, etc.)

True, she does take her training much more seriously than Kyo. But Kyo doesn’t train, he relies on the fact that he is a child prodigy.

You know what… ? I believe that these games CAN be compared from a mutual viewpoint. Take Gill for instance. He’s one of the best street fighters and how much training did he do to achive his said rank…? For Christs’ sake his power was prophecised Kyo and Iori-esque. That alone says that there are clashing viewpoints from withing the SF storyline. Gill relies on fighting data and his power was professed by prophets and yet he still reigns as SF king with Oro, Akuma and Bison?

The above quote applies to all of the top ranking Street Fighters except for Gill. He’s more along the lines of a KOF character… …See what I’m saying? Different games can be compared with different games, it’s just that you have to find the right medium.

32

Really good points!

Yes, Kyo loses to Goenitz, trains harder and defeats him in the same game. It’s a really short time period there and at no point do you really doubt Kyo being the best. Now if they would of dragged that out for a few games that may of been something. And Goenitz fanboys still argue that he lost to fate against the treasures, much like Orochi did. But yes, that was a turning point for Kyo, I’ll give you that.

Before Gill’s gene augmentation he was an excellent fighter. He defeated various opponents to be the one selected to be the king. Maybe he doesn’t have to train anymore now, but at one point he did, he wasn’t born that way, he was augmented.

The thing about Bruce Lee was that he never stopped training or learning while during his time most people stuck to one style and that’s it. So he had really great advantages and could even see the shortcomings of his own style and came up with Jeet Kun Do. Bruce Lee would try anything, in school he even gave boxing a shot. But like Jackie Chan said, everyone thought Bruce Lee was the greatest, and then he dies so now he’s the greatest ever, Chan couldn’t compete with Lee in movies so he created his own movie style, turned to be more comedic(and more entertaining). So if Bruce Lee would of lived, who knows if he would of met his match one day.

Oh well, no more discussion, let the Vs. begin I guess. :slight_smile:

33

Gr8 disscussion here… but susane-o, Kyo Does train… but not as hard as most fighting veterans (and then comes the talent and kusanagi bloodlines and stuff) and regarding terry… well I am DAMN SURE he trains everyday just like Ryu… he grew at southtown, he completed his training fighting ON THE STREET… and judging from the KOF’99 garou team ending and Garou opening, he constantly participates in street fights and keeps himself at his peak…

Oh and terry playing basketball = Ryu taking a bath at the hot springs… its a way to relax…

and tho I hate to say… GG VS SF/KOF is almost a mismatch… coz Gears wiped out the entire japanese race and if it weren’t for I-no’s intervention (look up the gG plot guide on this one) Gears would have wiped out the entire human race…

GG powerhouses (I mean extra-human characters):

Justice (gear), Sol (gear… heck fights at 50% power and still defeats almost all of the GG characters), Dizzy (she’ll around 5 years old and already she can use the Gamma Ray), Slayer (a freakin nightwalker…), I- No (Chemical love… yikes… not to mention she can time travel…)

SF powerhouses:

Gill (so-called god…), M.Bison (alpha version), Akuma, Oro

KOF powerhouses:

Orochi (the true Messanger of god), Igniz (same as gill), If we have to stretch… Mr. Karate, Goenitz, yashiro, shermie, chris (tho I doubt the later 3 the were of course defeated by team japan even at their full strength) no rugal doesn’t count…

perhaps it would be more balanced if it was SNKP/CAPCOM/GG (but then we would have gods popping up from every direction… Last blade characters, Samurai showdown characters?Darkstalkers, DMC?)

and err… susane-o Rock plays the guitars… and can play any song that he hears once… (chords I can but riffs,solos and everything… woah… that’s talent fer ya)

34

Orochi is the best, followed by…

My personal opinion is that Kyo and Iori are the best followed by the others(bear with me now I am for KOF). You forget that Kyo and Iori are exorcists who originally practice the exorcism of a deity. Kyo and Iori can take out Gill together hands down considering the fact that they can take out Orochi together. Bear with me now. They are exorcists who sole mission in life is to take out of one of the cheapest enemies in fighting game history to date. You have to remember, their flames are meant to take out Orochi. How is somebody like Kensou going to take a blast that was meant for a deity to take?

Check it out. There are 2 people on my list who cannot even be seen by the naked eye. Those two are Gill and Orochi… They are hidden in between the ethers. See where I’'m going with this… ? How can you fight what you can’t see… ? Well, I’ll tell you who can fight them. Kyo and Iori. Kyo and Iori are the only people from any of these games to wield etherals to defeat gods and deities who are hidden in between the ethers. Their etherals are the Kusanagi and the Yagami flames.

Slayer can hit someone from the Earth into a freaking black hole in about 2 - 3 seconds. Orochi could probably hit some one from a universe to another universe in about 2 - 3 seconds(if we are talking in multiversial terms). Kyo’s flames were meant to aid in the defeat of Orochi(a deity) and Sol-Badguy can barely best Slayer. Hell, it takes omnipotence to say that you could be using no effort and still hit someone into a black hole, from Earth, in 2 - 3 seconds flat. So if Slayer is omnipotent x1 then Orochi is omnipotent x5. This is just how it is. …And the worst part about it is; Slayer is holding back(Sol is as well)!

If Slayer can hit some one into a black hole from Earth while holding back then I wonder what Sol can do. Anyway…

So if GIll is hidden 500, 000 MGH in between the ethers than Orochi is hidden 3,000,000 MGH in between the ethers. This is just how it works. Orochi is not even a god. He is a deity. From my perspective a god is someone who has achived either omnipotence, omniscience, or omnipresence(if not all 3) and a deity is someone who is a multiversial entitiy who is adjoining on the human race(or other entities). Everyone has the potential to use ki so therefore Orochi is adjoining on everyone.

Now Tetsuo can cause a cosmic re-birth(basically a big bang) but I would consider him a god. Hell, he doesn’t even know how to use his powers(same with K’9999 / doesn’t know how to use his powers). K’9999’s weakness is that he can’t even stay in his 3rd form long enough to do any real destructive damage to someone like Orochi(not that he could harm him any)

Which brings me to another point. Orochi cannot be harmed by anyone but the Shingi Troica(Kyo, Iori, and Chizuru). Is it because their powers are magically able to defeat gods and deities just because SNK says so? Hope not. No, it’ is because their flames and abilities are so far condensed in between the ethers(they use etherals) that they can actually harm a deity. …And get this! They can’t even harm him! …All they can do is stagger him…

So Kyo and Iori actualy have the ability to see Gill in Atlantis('cause that’s where he’s at) hidden in between the ethers and they most definitey have the ability to see Orochi(hidden in between the dimensions).

Check it. Who else on this list has the ability to even see Orochi? No one. No one but the Shingi Troica. …And that’s why I say that they are the best.

So with that, here’s my list(I know people are going to have a problem with this list)

  1. Orochi * it all begins and ends with Orochi / the embodiment of ki*
  2. Kyo Kusanagi * The Kusanagi Sword Devine Regalia*
  3. Iori Yagami * The Hakkeshu Wine Glass Devine Regalia*
  4. Chizuru Kagura * The Yata Mirror Devine Regalia*
  5. Krizalid * uses a fake Devine Regalia*
  6. O.Chris uses the Kusanagi flames
  7. Slayer omnipotent
  8. Gill resides in Atlantis and has the Seraph Wing
  9. Sol-Badguy * is about as good as Gill and Slayer*
  10. K’9999 Tetsuo caused a cosmic rebirth / his name means the reset / Y2K in an instant / might be a Matrix hack
  11. Akuma * The Master of Fist*
  12. Oro * about as good as Akuma*
  13. Terry Bogard it’s all about the Fatal Fury / he defeated Scroll Geese who is about as strong as Igniz
  14. Igniz infinite amount of energy
  15. Scroll Geese * it’s all about the Wild Ambition*
    16 . Justice
  16. Kula Diamond * full screen super*
  17. K’
  18. Ino
  19. O. Yashiro
  20. O. Shermie
  21. Mr. Karate
  22. Rose
  23. Ryu
  24. Ken Masters

…Actually, screw the list. everyone is so close together in potency that it does not even matter anyway.

Oh yeah, Orochi was holding back as well…

35

Well, if I say it I will be accused of being a fanboy, but there’s a great post by Lantis where he said if Ryu and Kyo fought Ryu would win, I’ll dig around for it. But it would be very close. The only people who defeat Ryu are the ones that are truly dedicated to the fight. Gouki and Oro, for example. I’m sure Kyo trains, but he just have other things in his life going for him, school, a girlfriend, etc. These are things that would hinder him in his fight with Ryu. So I just think that Ryu would win, but only by a hair, and i would be extremely close if it didn’t end in a tie. But like I said, in an SNK setting he’d lose, and in a Capcom setting he’d win. And no comic or company is really going to answer this anyway. It’s like SVC Chaos’s intro, they are about to fight, are interupted by two other foes and fight them instead. Or in a fictional setting they’ll fight for 2 seconds and decide “let’s team up for the greater good!” and it would just be another unsettled rivalry like Iori/Kyo or Sagat/Ryu. Take movie crossovers for example. Who won, Freddy or Jason? Who won, Aliens or Predator? You can make cases for both, no clear answer anyway. There isn’t a resolution that will make everybody happy with main characters of different franchises.

No one is saying that Terry doesn’t train, he just doesn’t train as hard as Andy is all. Andy doesn’t have any anchors or other factors in his life besides training really, outside of running away from Mai…

I’ll attempt some sort of Tier list too, eventualy-ish. Just SF and KOF though. GG and DS should be done entirely seperatly I feel.

36

Nah, slayer > demitri. Demitri only beat pyron because he eats energy. Demetri is a vamp and still has all the traditional vamp weaknesses.

As far as talent… what about Sakura? Ken?

37

What about Iori… ? He trains and Kyo can still equal out with him. Don’t forget now, Kyo is a child prodigy who’s flames were meant to aid in the defeat of a deity. His daily life doesn’t hinder his talent. …And rememeber, Kyo can do more in a one on one fight against Orochi than Ryu could.

here’s how I see it:

Kyo Kusanagi

magick attack: infinite(how he staggers Orochi)
speed: 5
intelligence: 10(Kyo is a fighting genius and you can clearly see this in his auto-
block, economy of motion, and flames portion of his Poison
KnawfestBodiga)
attack: 6
strateg. mind 8

Ryu

magick attack: 6(pales in comparison to Kyo’s deity defeating blasts)
speed: 5(Ryu and Kyo move at about the same speed)
intelligence: 6(is not as much as a fighting genius as Kyo seeing as how he
has a technically advanced augmented fighting style)
attack 6 (Type 411 Locomotive Upper and the Shin Shoryuken both have
high attack power)
strateg. mind 10(where Ryu shines / he’s the master of strategy)

Ken has talent but is no child prodigy as far as I’m concerned. Sakura is a little lacking in the talent department.

38

Iori has anchors too, doesn’t he have like a band? There really is no character in all of KOF didicated to the fight as much as Ryu. It would be completely new ground for him. Even Ryo has a family and a possible future love interest in King. And again, Kyo can only effect Orochi if and only if Iori and Chizuru are there with him. Other than that, no one can touch Orochi. That’s why both companies were not insane enough to make Orochi a Boss in the CVS/SVC games, due to the prophecy/legend. Granted, I don’t know what the Hell Mizuchi is in NGBC… Ryu can dodge bullets, carry around a boulder that ways tons, has a high command of Ki and his Shin Shoryuken can kill a man, all through his training alone. He is incredibly powerful, it’s just that people like Gouki and Oro are stronger than he is, but he will continue to improve so who knows.

Sakura’s like Alex, a character with unlimited potential that’s not yet fulfilled. Ken’s way above both of course.

39

Yeah Kyo needed the help of both Iori and Chizuru to defeat Orochi… and on top of that Orochi wasn’t at full power right… If the new faces team had succeeded in sacrificing yuki Then, I think he would have wiped out the entire planet and yada yada… Plus. I definately remember Orochi saying “If I release my full power… then…” in the "3 sacred weapons (kyo/iori/chizuru) ending in KOF 97)… hence Orochi wasn’t at full strength at the time they defeated him… anime rules strike again eh??

and regarding the magic power stats Kyo is definately higher but then on the other hand Kyo and Iori DO NOT use Ki-based attacks IMO… as in the KOF mangas, Kyo’s attacks would be severely affected if his flames are sealed off… but I’m pretty sure he can hold his own with his physical attackes only

and yes iori is in a band… he has a girlfriend… and well apart from the times his fighting he hates violence… (weird)

Plus regarding ryu’s potential/intelligence Oro declared that Ryu would be ready to fight Oro unsealed (i.e. Oro at his full power) in fifteen years time… 140 years of training VS. ryu’s 55 (?) years of training… that is quiet impressive eh??

Regarding K’, doesn’t he fall partially in the data category? 'cause his D.N.A. is enhanced with Kyo’s and the chief reason for his power is also the Kusanagi flames…

And Sakura’s Ki-manupulating abilities rivaled Ken’s during Alpha2-3 right… woah… Now THAT is magically gifted IMO…

my speculations about the Kusanagi/Yagami/#fake flames

Kusanagi Crimson flames:

  • Can be wielded only by the ones of the kusanagi bloodline
  • Actual flames, intensity can be controlled by the user
  • Flames require the life-force of the user to be sustained. Hence if you aren’t strong enough you can get burned by your own flames. Rigorous training is required by even the higher level Kusanagis to use the flame at its highest level. (Conjuncture made by the fact that Kyo needs the special gloves until the start of KOF 97 to use the flames at its full power – from KOF:KYO rpg)
  • The user can use the flames the augment their physical attacks or as projectiles… The ancient Kusanagi fighting style “magatama” deals with the usuages of the flames in various techniques called “Shiki”… However, many have been known to bring their own “Creative” additions to the style
  • The highest level of magatama is the creation of the “kusanagi-fire-column” The user focuses all his power to create an explosive pillar of fire streching to the heavens… (kyo --> Mushiki, Saisyu --> the SDM he had in KOF 98)

Yagami/Orochi flames:

  • the Purple flame used by the Yagami bloodline or the ones of the Orochi bloodline is actually a variation on the kusanagi flames itself
  • the flames are almost a replica of the crimson flames of the kusanagi… except with one major exception, they are HIGHER in intensity (using a little physics in this one) than the kusanagi flames… hence the user needs higher life force to use the purple flames. Unless of the orochi bloodline, even an advanced Kusanagi master would have difficulty sustaining the flames. Yagami clan, though having orochi power in their blood cannot sustain the flame and hence the intense flame feed on the user itself hence giving the people of the yagami clan short lifespans…
  • Yagami style magatama is more violent in comparision to kusanagi style magatama. Also relying on various “forbidden” moves (like Iori’s Ya-otame)

#fake flames#

  • the first user of “fake flames” as that of the kusanagi/yagami clan was Rugal… his flames however were Green in color… obviously, his body was unable to sustain the power of the orochi and it disintegrated him… (KOF 95)

  • the second batch of “fake flame” users appeared in the NESTs saga with the advent of the Kyo-Clones Kyo-1 and Kyo-2. A notable point to be mentioned is that the NESTs organization had managed to isolate the “kusanagi-flame” genes from Kyo Kusanagi’s body and had managed it to implant it into several of its “test-subjects” amounting to around 9999 clones and random humans.

  • Most people implanted with the DNA seem to reject the genes or rather grow unstable (k’9999’s “power is losing control move”). Few seem to accept the gene completely but their body is unable to sustain the flames (K’ wears the red glove to sustain the flames… K’9999 has mechanical/cybernatic hands) this condition,however, might be corrected by sustained usuage of the flames (k’ says he doesn’t need the gloves in KOF 2000… but he’s wearing it again in KOF 2001). It is also noted that the DNA in the modified humans seem to react to the Source of the flames itself (KOF 2002 team K’ and 3 sacred weapons Team). Till date Krizalid and K’ have been the only modified humans who have been able to sustain the DNA modification.

40

She’s gifted but she’s no child prodigy.

Here’s my rendition of Kyo’s flames:

Kyo’s flames - biological control of fire, more than a biological control of fire, infinite amount of energy, can light areas, can warm the body, can boost him, moving speed, condensed explosion, can biologically heat and burn things, can explode things, cannot be sealed by magick, can sift out statuses, can fight diseases and viruses, invincibility, flame’s transparent burn never dies(eternity burn), black hole effect, burn out in the wheel of time, automatic purgatory work(Clock Tower 3-esque if you’ve ever played it), instant max infinity achive(OD), one touch explosion, one touch lights the entire body on fire

flames have power level but they don’t, ancient fire burn, transparent flames