so were going to act like (Fuast, Jack-o, Axle, Vemom) BB (Arakune, Rachel, Amane, Izayo) p4(Yukiko, Elizabeth, Yukari, Marie) vever existed? I’ll be the first to admit ASW fighter are heavily aggressive but saying “no dedicated zoning” or “keep away” I gotta call bullshit.
I never said that they didn’t exist. All I did was point out that the Capcom examples are, for the most part, more prominent and more dominant. You don’t really see these kinds of character dominate in ASW games (except maybe in BB:CT) compared to in the older Capcom games.
Actually, Tataki’s post can explain wy this is in a way. It’s the the Capcom games where you tend to have characters with whom it’s better to just keep away and zone instead of using the zoning to set things up. Take for example the Ryu vs Honda match up in ST, all Ryu wants to do in that match up is to keep Honda at bay and just fireball him out (with the occasional jump in punish). Even if Ryu knocks Honda down, the optimal thing to do is to meaty hadouken.
I mean, none of those GG characters are dedicated keep away. That’s why people get confused; in GG you use your zoning to set up advantageous situations to go in generally. It’s different from say, your SF4 Dhalsim where you use your zoning to make more space. That’s not to say that anime styled games can’t have true zoners; Hilda in Uniel is a complete zoner who wants to never be close. Mu generally does her whole game in BB from range. That’s dedicated keep away, but it’s different from using a supreme neutral advantage to chip away and force mistakes which let you go in.
Are there examples of this that aren’t overpowered and are well balanced with the rest of the game’s aspects?
Any version of Dhalsim that’s not his SFV version where he isn’t top tier. Ryu in ST (as stated, has match ups where he never wants to go in).
Actually most of Capcom’s zoning archetype characters from the 90’s would probably count.
But if you remove extreme matchups like Ryu vs Honda or Sim vs Gief. Even Sim has his fireball teleport mixup and after wards he pushes the opponent away as much as possible.
Well you can’t, because they already exist and are part of FG history, which is why Capcom games are associated with it, which is my whole point.
Also, Sim does get a teleport mixup, but his gameplan in the older games is still about keeping the fuck away (compared to SFV 'Sim who tries to get more IAT mixups in after the first, which is why people say he has “anime zoning”).
And not all classic Capcom zoners had the same mixup potential as 'Sim. For example, MSH Blackheart is mostly about tossing out HK demons so he can confirm to his pillars and/or super. Even if he has combos and even infinites, you can still clearly see that he’s meant to just keep you out
I don’t really think that in order for a character to be called something that it has to be doing that 24/7 100% of the time. That’s just dogmatic and rigid. Every keepaway character that I’ve ever seen has some thing they can do to get in, some form of offensive pressure even if it isn’t that good.
Same way just about every rushdown character ever can get a lifelead and then play keepaway using the clock should they choose to (even if it isn’t super effective)
A loooong time ago I made differentiations between “keepaway” “runaway” and “zoning”
People use these as if they are interchangeable and in laymens terms so do i. But when we strat to really break shit down. They have different meanings:
Keepaway = using your attacks, not your movement to keep characters away from you. This style of play was easily seen in world warrior with guile and dhalsim who could keep other characters away for entire rounds pretty easily. Also note that they generally had no reason to jump backwards or run away. They just hit you with shit and you couldnt do much about it. This style of play is rare and generally broken when it’s actully good or a character relies upon it.
Runaway = newschool keepaway. This is a style where you use your movement to keep players away from you. This almost always requires a way to get out of the corner when you run yourself into it, or for a game to have huge stages. Having both of these things helps even more.
The obvious examples of this style of play are teleport characters and rolento:
Teleporters run away into the corner then teleport out of the corner and make you chase them to the other corner, then teleport out of that corner and they do this over and over again till infinity or you die chasing them. In real matches it’s rare for these character to need to teleport out of the corner more than 2-3 times max. But the gust is that they can just run forever unless you stop them.
Rolento is another protypical runner cause he has a move that moves him all the way towards the back of the stage (away from you) but also has a move that he can use to over you once you corner him, making you chase him all over again.
Think of most any defensive character in most fighting games nowadays and they usually use either a lot or a little bit of running, and some are better at it than others. Like characters that can easily get out of the corner… tend to be the best at it. But those that don’t have great ways out of the corner tend to have a stronger active keepaway, to make up for the lack of runaway.
A trend amongst defensive characters in fighting games is the better they are at runaway the worse they are at keepaway, and the better they are at keepaway the worse they are at runaway.
All new school characters need to use a bit of both styles though as it’s way to overpowered to make a character that can overly rely on either extreme.
Zoning = keeping your opponent in your preferred spacing whether that spacing is defensive for you or offensive for you, it’s that spacing where your attacks are best and your opponents are (hopefully) at their worst. Zoning is simply playing around with this spacing and trying to keep it for as long as possible while playing mindgames with its ranges. All characters zone.
Has anyone mentioned puppet characters like in jojos/persona/bb
I love those
This reminds me of a certain playstyle, or player archetype that we really don’t see much of nowadays. It’s what Sirlin called “the Obsessed” in his book, and what many of us here would simply call “Sirlining”.
Basically, it means finding one move (normal, special, etc.) that you can use to frustrate your opponent and force them to work around it before even having a hope of winning the match. The idea is that the opponent gets so obsessed and frustrated by said move that they focus too much on it and end up passing up on other ways to get around it and win the match.
Now the style is associated with Sirlin for obvious reason (A2 Rose low strong and a specific match back in the day), and it’s led most people to associate it with just pressing buttons, and indeed certain characters in certain games have been conducive to that A2 Rose and Chun, CvS2 Sagat, Cammy, Claw, etc., 3S Chun, KoFXIV Love Heart). But honestly, it’s more than just that. You can also play this way with certain characters and move sets.
The most recent examples would have to be Mian and Choi in King of Fighters XIV. Both have move sets that can be quite annoying to deal with, Mian with her chain-able divekicks, Choi with his chain-able drills. This is something you can see Reynald using in tournaments, where he’ll use one or the other (mostly Mian, but he’ll switch to Choi when the former fails) to frustrate his opponents.
The other interesting thing about Mian and Choi is that, unlike the buttons based Capcom examples, they aren’t top tier. However, in the hands of a player like Reynald, they can be quite frustrating to play against, even with characters that are supposedly better than them.
Isn’t SFV Dhalsim a “runaway” character? He pokes a bit with limbs and fireballs, but mostly uses air teleports and V skill to stay afar while avoiding the ground area (and most attacks) and poking with j.HP if you get close and basically attacking in an angle that’s difficult to counter, especially when air teleports behind you while you were sending an attack forward.
Birdget can play “runaway” but once again the style is “what you do in neutral” rather than “what you do 100% of the time”. The goal isn’t to actually to get a life lead and time over by running away 100% of the time. The goal is to gain an upper hand in neutral via superior movement. When the opponent wants to attack you strive to always be out of range, and you can choose the best times for you to get in, try to attack, and escaping again if it didn’t work.
Any neutral strategy that would be the preferred solution 100% of the time (these people’s definition of “style”), even in cases of frame advantage and knockdowns, would be a strategy that’s too good and will make the game worse overall.
Sf5 sim is both. He’s also a hybrid offensive character. It seems like they didn’t really know what they wanted him to do.
Almost all defensive characters in new school are a hybrid of runaway and keepaway.
Keepaway seems to be less broken and seen more in anime though (axl/nu etc) simply because in anime the characters have more angles to approach by and that keeps keepaway in check to a certain extent.
This.
There are times where it feels like you actually want to stay close with 'Sim, using LK slide, jab, drill kicks, etc. to pressure. That, or you want to go for repeated teleport mixups once you get one in.
Then again, in general, SFV seems to want to limit traditional SF keepaway/runaway play.
That sounds more like
A ) A player playstyle preference more than a character desing stuff.
B ) Simply Poor balance, since either the character only has one real viable tool or that specific tool is so good that it covers most of the stuff on battle that there is not really a reason to not use it.
Mian in KoFXIV refutes both of these since a) Neo_G stated that he wanted players to be able to go to town with her dive kick chains, and b) She’s no where near top tier.
That doesn’t disaporve what i am saying at all, in fact, quoting Neo_G who historically has come with the most questionable mechanics and agmeplay design desicions only futhers my point.
He is forcing a character to rely on guimmicks instead of giving her a solid gameplay.
Neo_G is responsible for more than a number of “classics” (3rd Strike, CvS2, MvC2). More importantly, he’s someone who makes smart design decisions that can make a game work despite how broken it could possibly be as the video below demonstrates.
LMAO, yeah right.
Nigga, of those games you mentioned, only CVS2 has a semblance of intelligent design behind it, and that is because is trying to imitate other games.
3s and mvc2 are anything but intelligent design, mvc2 is good by accident, and 3s is meh. If anyone bothered to play the game is because the SF name alone. The game is plagued of idiotic mechanics that only served to make it the balance mess that it is.
Video shows that there are smart design decision in MvC2 that actually contribute to why it’s great. Stuff like PBGC, pushblock unblockable protection, etc.
Nigga, you trippin.
You shouldnt be letting someone attempt to throw you in the first place.