With input lag being fixed (thank God) may I draw your attention to the other major problem this game has, one that I hear almost nobody talk about ever, and that’s hit/hurt boxes.
I’ve never seen anything like this in a Street Fighter game. From day one, the first local tournament we played I literally yelled “what the fuck?!?” out loud as I watched my c.HK from Birdie literally clip completely through my opponents foot. Visible clip, without registering a hit. So it turns out Ken and Ryu’s hurtboxes are just way off. Notice here how the entire from of his body is outside of the box: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX-R0-Z48DU
Normals just feel like they have no reach whatsoever. Especially Ryu and Ken’s c.MK. When c.MK into Hadouken doesn’t feel good in a Street Fighter game then you know you fucked up.
This is how it’s supposed to be: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KimKJCjfPFs Notice how the hurtbox, represented by blue, engulfs the character. When you touch the character, it hits. Not in 5.
Street Fighter has always had an element of zoning and spacing. Without that you’re just left with: rush in, get as close as possible, do frame traps. This haunts both SFIV and V.
These are such simple things, such “taken for granted” things we never thought about back in the day when SF was good. Well I shouldn’t say we never thought about it, but we certainly took for granted that it’d be done right. SSF2T was already great A2 even tighter and with 3S they introduced pixel-perfect hitboxes that made the game incredibly organic. Nowadays we can’t count on them to get the simplest things right and it’s regressed to the point of ST level hitboxes would be an improvement, SNK-era hitboxes would be an improvement. Not knocking SNK but back in the day Capcom fighters were just tighter.
No other fighting game to my knowledge has such fundamental issues of weird hit/hurtboxes and input lag, not Smash Bros, not Virtua Fighter, not Guilty Gear not even second rate stuff like DOA or KOF. Why? Does Capcom’s SF team just suck? Maybe they should contract Arc or SNK for the next game, I just don’t get it.
The hitbox doesn’t move and Ken’s entire shoulder/body/leg/foot area is invulnerable to attack, but only at certain times :lol:. I can’t. I just can’t fathom this. The producer/directors of this game don’t understand fundamental fighting game stuff. No, I take that back, this is fundamental VIDEO GAME stuff. Imagine if Mario could touch a quarter of a goomba without being damaged lol. Or there was a 120MS delay from when you pressed jump. Christ.
Supposedly the excuse in SFIV was it would be tough to do organic 2d hit boxes with 3d models. In SFV the hurt boxes are nearly uniform for most characters and the hit boxes are changed mainly for gameplay reasons. They wanted every normal to have a specific purpose so every hit box always has some type of hole or place where it won’t hit.
Looking at that video I just realized how much of an eyesore the motion blur is in slow motion.
There are plenty of 3D games with perfectly fine hit/hurtboxes. Virtua Fighter 2 has perfect hit/hurtboxes, a game released in 1994. Excuses excuses.
There’s no difference between 3D hitboxes and 2D ones. The games are still played on a 2D plane. The same rules should apply. Capcom acts like it’s the first company to do 3D fighters or 2.5D ones. Hell I can go dust off some old SNK 3D fighters on the PS2 with proper hit/hurtboxes that shame SFV.
I like the graphics and once the lag is fixed I’ll play it, only because I love competition. We’re still probably looking at 3-4f of input delay though which still sucks. But regardless, if that and the hit/hurtboxes were fixed it’d be a great game.
3 to 4 frames of input lag is the standard for most fighting games new and old. Even Skullgirls (which was meticulously made to be OG 2d fighter in the new era) has 3 frames of input delay.
They’re not going to do much with the hit boxes. It’s just old man ranting to them. This is the way they do hit boxes now and it would take way too much background work to fix. The gameplay is specifically designed around the way they do the hit boxes.
According to this graphic the input lag on average for Skull Girls and MKX is under 2 frames:
Both MKX and Skullgirls are 2 frames of input lag. Which is fucking awesome, and considering SFV and MKX use UE4, this is the standard we should ask of Capcom.
I used to think that Street Fighter 4 felt stiff, that footsies had no reach, that the game felt slow etc. It really all does come down to poorly programmed hitboxes and input delay.
At least now we know what the problems are and can hold their feet to the fire. But man. Those chimps at dimps. I never thought I’d see the day where Mortal Kombat not only surpassed Street Fighter in playability and hit/hurtboxes but shit on it from a great height. These are really unacceptable problems IMO.
This is a fighting game forum. First of all you’ve gone from agreeing with me to memeing me. This is a fighting game forum, a Street Fighter forum. This is the place to talk about issues with the game that can be fixed to make it better, give me a break.
Man remember those days when a hitbox actually encompassed the characters body? Those were the days.
I remember the old days fine, but I don’t really miss them and I don’t think there’s a problem with having unrealistic hurtboxes. My old-ass brain has adjusted and I’m having fun. I guess I just don’t understand why some folks spend so much effort or time talking about subjective elements of things like this. You think MKX is better? Cool, go play it. Your idea of Street Fighter is dead and unlikely to return. MK isn’t my jam, but I’m thrilled that people are playing it - same with KI or Tekken.
That there is all bait, so giving out that I shut you out with a vacuous meme macro doesn’t really hold weight.
The hurtbox/hitboxes in SFV definitely are simple. I miss all the character specific stuff from 3S. I doubt it’ll change. That said, really curious where you heard input lag was being fixed. I’d love to have an official source on that one.
When I was doing my long Ibuki 3S to SFV transition blogpost (seen in my signature, and has my own makeshift hitboxes overlayed over 3S sprites), I had to do a lot of research when comparing certain move designs to ones similar to Ibuki’s in order to get both proper frame data but also hitbox data as well. SFV wanted to avoid any and all character specific stuff, a flawed philosophy first attempted by SFIV I believe, the result is a bit of a mess.
A few rules I’ve found when I was coming up with my own hitboxes were this:
When standing still, your character has a hitbox ending at his shoulders properly, and a hitbox on his head. (True for crouching as well)
Pressing any button will result in your hurtbox immediately turning into a solid rectangle, with your head as the top. (True for crouching, but the “head” is always the height of a standing jab)
Crouching hurtboxes are universal in size and pay very little mind to what is on screen. They are about the size of where a standing jab would hit.
Vulnerability boxes on crouching normals tend to always extend very far beyond the hitbox. (This is true to standing normals to a lesser degree.)
Rather than create clear transitions, moves that move you forward just move your hurtbox forward as one big block.
Moves that do not move you forward but extend a leg tend to have a long vulnerability box included at your front.
Low profiling very rarely exists, and is very move specific.
Moves made specifically for purposes tend to have no vulnerability box on the limb on the first frame. This is primarily used for Anti-airs. Which is fine, I guess, since this has always been done in fighting games.
Aerial hurtboxes are static and remain the exact same size regardless of what normal you use. This essentially removes the concept of priority and evasive aerial normals. Dive kicks are maybe the exception.
Aerial hurtboxes possess a strange new hurtbox extension, essentially making you as large in the air as you are on the ground. (This is a red hurtbox for some reason in hitbox viewer, meaning it’s a different hurtbox type?)
Aerial attacks tend to have vulnerability boxes that extend very far beyond their hitbox, to almost a ridiculous degree.
An aerial attack’s hitbox can near NEVER extend beyond it’s vulnerability box. Near no exceptions to this.
Crossups possess hitboxes that extend through the entire body.
I also found out that I hate this fuckin’ design. At least the grounded hitboxes make some bit of sense, but what’s the point of compressing my character to a tiny state if the hurtbox is still HUGE!? None. It’s funny that this is called jump fighter V by some people, because I can guarantee you, once the delay is fixed, this is going to be a game where you can never jump in. Anti-air jab only works because of this ass-backwards hurtbox design. Use attacks which make you hit faster/earlier rather than ones which compress your body higher, because that doesn’t make you hard to hit, it just gives them more time to react. It’s obnoxious.
