Cammy’s dp is punishable on block by nearly everything, because she’s still recovering for a short while after she hits the ground. I don’t get what you’re saying. Any good player can punish it, it’s not hard. =\
You can dash and do a normal because she’s -30. You see Justin Wong do dash -> cl.hp with Rufus all the time. Seth just does lp tanden and gets a full punish easily. Gouken gets dash -> cr.hp xx lol.
Rose can probably dash U2 df.mk cr.mp xx spiral for a punish.
Oh and cammy’s uppercut does a whopping 100 damage.
Also, never play ST because if you think her uppercut is unfair in SF4, it’s twice as bad as ST. I know a player who would whiff cannon spike intentionally just to try to throw you as Cammy landed. Do I even need to mention safe lp uppercuts?
Edit: messed up the Rose U2 combo notation.
Rose can do dash cr.hp xx drill, which does 200 damage, twice as much as the dp. If she’s willing to spend bar, cr.hp xx reflect FADC soul throw does 278 and leads to an untechable knockdown.
If the Rose player isn’t confident they can simply do walk forward cr.mp xx drill which does a respectable 160 damage
She can also do dash forward activate U2
Deejay can do dash forward into a combo after a blocked spike.
If blocked close he can get dash, cl.forward, cr.jab, cr.strong xx sobat and you can continue to combo if you fadc the sobat. Does 230ish damage which is over twice as much as a dp. blocked from slightly farther out you can go for st.short, cr.jab, cr.forward which does 106 damage(not a ton), but leads to an untechable knockdown. The second combo probably can be more optimized too or be something that goes into lk sobat.
On a close blocked spike you can also do kneeshot into full combo. He can also just do walk forward slide.
I’d rather deal with this move than o.ken dp or something.
It’s overall 30, including the frames she’s still in the air while you can move (and you need to use that time to dash anyway, not to mention the reaction time it takes to realize you just blocked a DP if you were not waiting for it specifically)
The landing recovery, your actual window to make the move hit within, is not a whole 30 frames…
Time your punish before, and you get a puny aerial hit or whiff, time it after you you’ll get blocked or eat another reversal.
People who told me “it’s not hard to punish, you just suck!” I put them in front of training mode and told them to punish it (with something that needs her grounded) 10 out of 10 in a row, and they couldn’t. Then they shut up about it. So maybe everyone sucks but you, but that was training mode! In casuals it would be harder, and in tournaments even harder than that.
And so what if you have seen Justin Wong do it? I’m saying it’s harder than it should be and it does not disprove that. Justin Wong also does ROM, so does that mean ROM isn’t hard?
I never justified her DP in ST (hell look how stupid her matchups are vs Gief and Hawk) but the way the whole game is built, that move is not a big deal vs other characters.
Oh. Other feature I would like to stop seeing in fighting games: Company Representatives who are actually representing the financing assets of their corporation under the auspice of “better customer service.”
This commonly translates into the following actions
[LIST]
[]Appear concerned about the communities who purchase your products. This gives you free advertisement and lowers final production inputs, without any real investment of meaningful resources.
[]Make appearances often, polling community interest in implementing features. The company already has assets dedicated to that, quietly performing their job with little fanfare. But free hype is good, and as above, money saved is profit.
[*]When creating an unpopular feature that infuriates your community, make the minimum amount of changes possible while satisfying the “bottom line.” You really don’t get to decide to repeal some new money making scheme because the newest stupidity is actually the CFO’s new money-raping brainchild, and won’t allow the product to ship without it. But you *can lie about how little the change affects the community, and how much you will enjoy it. The victims of rape speak of similar proclamations from their attackers… I call a spade a spade.
[]The Corporate Foil. We get this one too, and you know who you are. Some of us do chase down IPs and screen name patterns from time to time. This works both ways.
[/LIST]
Look, we get it. Developers do not really have final say in implemented features in a product they are designing on someone else’s payroll. Somewhere in (oh, Capcom), there really is a place where the people generating a product are genuinely concerned with satisfying the consumer.
Wherever this place is, it is not generally visited by those making “command decisions” for a product release. I suspect that even with so many upheavals in the Information Age, many of these executives do not believe that the customer is anything other than a wallet waiting to be opened, exploited, and discarded when empty. They do not realize just how quickly angry fans can bankrupt their company, particularly when they are responsible for such a significant portion of it’s quarterly profits.
^^^
What the fuck is this guy talking about??
I fucking HATE this mechanic, it’s so scrubby.
Grenades, RPGs, Missiles and nukes all launched in the direction of Seth Killian.
I award you three points.
(I knew that any mention of “comeback mechanics”, whether appropriately defined or not, would cause a ruckus, though I suppose it’s a lot more civil than I expected ultimately.
I’m not going to comment on the fact that some people are saying keepaway shouldn’t show up, though.)
I’ll try to keep this short because of a combination of being a long-winded bastard, other people having touched on most of my points (except one that will probably be rather inflammatory, but I’ll save that for last) and not wanting to pretend like I know every nuance of fighting game engines, companies or Internet connectivity. Speaking of that last bit, aside from one thing that someone already expertly touched on, I’m probably not even going to (directly) mention the Internet/online when it comes to games just, even with netcode that isn’t “bad”, a lot of seems like it still depends on the infrastructure and internal Internet support of a country. So, while Japan and Korea are otherwise fine with things that we consider “bad” netcode, America (and probably some other countries) are never really going to be able to have “good” netcode until their infrastructure becomes not shit, even acknowledging that even best netcode is still going to have at least some lag.
Similarly, as much as I’d like to see tutorials in the game rather than basically context-less trial modes, I’m not going to pretend that implementing that is going to be easy or clear-cut.
With that said, let’s begin with the actual list:
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The inability to properly filter those you fight online alongside being sent back to the “main menu” of the online option by default: The user robotic elf already touched expertly on this and more on page 4, so let’s move on.
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The inability to access online unless you buy the game new: This one of a couple of things I’m surprised I didn’t see at all since it came up on at least the front page before MK9 released, even though I know there was a shitstorm about it on that discussion. Yes, I know being able to use online is a privilege and not a right (like a good many things that people still wouldn’t want to lose, like being able to drive). Yes, I know that people, ideally, “should” be buying games only if they have the disposable income for it in the first place (as with many things, though this also ignores several factors that make it not as clear-cut). Yes, MK9 supposedly isn’t the first game to use this practice. None of that makes convinces me the practice needs to continue or that it was anything more than avarice in actuality despite their being the excuse that it was needed to cover development costs or something–I really doubt that most of that additional revenue actually went to the people who designed the online for that game or even any of the people who actually worked on it in any meaningful amount.
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DLC Characters and other DLC that affects multiplayer gameplay: I use “multiplayer” rather than “competitive” here if only because of online being the only way that many people get to experience the game against others and thinking it’s rather…unfair that some people might have to fight characters that they can’t even practice against unless they have additional money. Outside of that, most of it’s been said anyway and it’s pretty much always about greed. It’s rather a trap in itself since the character would “need” to be “mediocre but usable” at best to cause the least amount of up set since then you either have people “paying to win” since the character is one of the top tier or people wasting money since the character is otherwise garbage (MvC3 Shuma-Gorath, seemingly). Both those options ending in failure in addition to “mediocre” usually being unable to move a product–“Oh man! This character so average! I want him!”–just seems like it’s completely a waste of time and solely to bilk people.
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DLC that doesn’t transfer over or that still has to be bought in the sequel or even sequels that are DLC only and not on disk: You have a character that you wanted to add but couldn’t fit into the initial game before launch date? Save it for the sequel or update where you can make sure that character is polished. looks at Jill and Shuma, even though he bought and likes the former Thankfully, the only other thing that I know is doesn’t transfer is MvC3’s “Shadow Mode”, but I never bought that and I don’t think anyone even likes it, so… But, yeah, this being another potential issue of DLC is part of what tempts me to just say that no DLC should happen. I’ll refrain from saying that outright, though, since I’m theoretically fine with purely cosmetic stuff–it’s just that pretty much all (?) the games that have had DLC costumes have had (pseudo) 3D models where it ends up affecting consistency of the hurtboxes as well, which is obviously bad.
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Characters going through idle motions that make their hitting and comboing them inconsistent and/or are visually non-sensical: Pretty much self-explanatory.
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Frequent balance patches that show that the people behind that patches have no idea about the characters they’re changing and the environment they’re in and/or that happen so frequently as to undermine any natural development: Again, pretty much self-explanatory. Unless it’s fixing some pretty egregious bugs, most of which should have been caught during proper testing, then there’s really no excuse for patches to occur anymore frequently than maybe every 3 months at most. Ideally, I’d like to think that a game could remain solid and develop naturally for at least twice that amount of time, but I’m immediately unsure… Still, it doesn’t need to happen every month or so yet at the same time it seems like it should at least have the illusion of some type of schedule so that it isn’t obviously some “you’ve guys have bitched enough, so let us sate you with some egregiously knee-jerk patch for the dumbest parts of the masses”.
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Putting text logs of said patch changes in terminology that a lot of people aren’t going to understand or that are vaguely worded: This is rather minor, but something that’s been bugging me nonetheless. I can understand having a rather detailed log for intra-company use when making changes to both go between the people who are working on it and to make sure that everything gets checked off. However, there seems to be little if any point to release any list to the general public that makes multiple and extensive mention of “frames” and the like, at least if there’s not going to be any accompanying parenthetical statement to state what it actually means it layman’s terms. As much as I generally hate pandering to idiots, “dumbing things down” isn’t always a bad thing and isn’t necessarily pandering to those same idiots, merely the ignorant. The average gamer isn’t going to understand what a “frame” is, especially from a purely textual basis–you’re just going to make them wistful for Pokemon Snap. And to say that something should be worded clearly, the arguable inevitability of typos aside, is pretty dam [sic] obvious.
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Intentional unbalance: No game will ever be “perfectly” balanced unless it’s a game where there’s literally only one character on the select screen and even then it would probably favor whoever plays on the player-1’s side. That said, making (new) characters intentionally unbalanced when they already have the benefit of in created for or at least (re-)designed with the system (changes) in mind is bullshit. It’s as much bullshit as making popular characters intentionally overpowered because of Wolverine Publicity (warning: TVTropes; may instantly consume hours of your day) and I can’t really fathom why or how someone would be stupid enough to openly/publicly admit that they did this to manufacture (false) hype.
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Large, gameplay differences between ports: As someone pointed out earlier, there’s always going to be at least minimal different between ports on multiple consoles because just basic hardware differences and limitations, but there’s no reason it should overall affect gameplay to the point where one version (or more) of the game is markedly inferior to the other(s). DLC-characters that are console-only go here and are doubly stupid.
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Inability to change buttons without having to go into a match: Blazblue has proven it’s possible and I don’t think Aksys (?) has copyrighted it or done anything else that would prevent other games from having it. So between it being free use and game companies becoming more involved in tournaments, you think that it would become pretty standard to make tournaments less headache-y on everyone. I will make mention of the inability to reselect the last team in team games automatically; it just seems pretty obvious, especially if you’re going to have such a finite number of save spaces in the case of MvC3 or none at all in the case of most other games.
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Visuals that are either contrary to what’s actually occurring during hitboxes or are otherwise unintentionally confusing: That underlined part is the important distinction here. Things like Viewtful Joe’s basically impossible to see :f:+:m: overhead or Chizuru’s–gods, she needs to be in more games, SNK–neat fake illusions (that still hit you) that are intentionally deceptive are fine. What I mean more are things like seemingly hitting a character on-screen only to have my limb magically whiff through their body or having stages that end up having bad lighting and mesh poorly with at least some costumes and effects or having characters who have costumes that are too similar so that it’s confusing in a mirror match. The last one is kinda difficult to avoid, though, depending on the number of costumes you’re aiming for and it arguably only plagues faster-paced, higher-damage games anyway–the middle one is arguably also difficult to avoid, but the first one really has no excuse.
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Input systems that are so loose that they get in the way of the player: There’s almost always being going to overlap within a character’s movelist and fighting game controls need to be intentionally at least somewhat lenient if you want consistency for even high level players, especially on pad–gods, my DPs are basically :f:,:df:,:d:,:df:,:f: on pad. However, there’s no reason that things like what the OP or others (at least ones who weren’t talking about auto-correcting, which is probably always going to be around, like it or not) have said where you can basically mash on the controller and get something (that isn’t “push button repeatedly”) to come out or try to move back and forth rapidly & then have to attack only for your character to launch into the sky.
13.Comeback mechanics that hold the losing player’s hand to the point where they instantly turn-around battles automatically: Comeback mechanics in themselves aren’t bad. While arguably unnecessary in even their most mundane forms, things like guts or bursts or other mechanics that just delay an ass-kicking or make it less one-sided without necessarily suddenly swinging the advantage from the person who played better to the person who blocked with their face. This also isn’t talking about things that people like TS have pointed out aren’t really comeback mechanics, whether for better (like K-Groove) or for worse (like X-Factor). This is more talking about things like Ultras–yes, it’s debatable–where you basically have stop winning for a while after beating up on your opponent because pretty much every time it’s going to come up every single round. I’m not saying that people shouldn’t ever have to adjust their strategies, but that should happen more because the opponent actually worked to get that position even if they were already losing rather than just having it handed to them because they were losing. At best, it just slows down the pace of the game needlessly. At worst, it fills people with a false sense of competence that prompts them to never actually learn anything. (K-Groove doesn’t count in this sense still because a)it runs out, b)it isn’t guaranteed and c)people can be spiteful and trigger for you if they’re about to lose a character by taunting you.)
- Alpha Counters that can be comboed off fatally or fatal in and of themselves: Yeah, this is basically one of the key factors of what’s wrong with X-Factor, though X-Factor is hardly the only instance of this unfortunately. cough SF Alpha series cough Man, I can feel TS breathing down to my neck already and I haven’t even gotten to the most inflammatory thing yet. But, yeah, there’s really no reason why defensive should suddenly become fatal offensive if the attacker isn’t screwing up an attack string or some equally egregious that’s actually a screw-up on their part besides attacking.
AND NOW COMES WHAT’S LIKELY TO BE THE MOST INFLAMMATORY THING IF YOU’VE MADE IT THIS FAR. WHAT’S TODAY’S WORD CHILDREN? “CUSTOM COMBOS!” YAY!~
- Custom Combos or systems/supers liken to them: Let me start this off by saying that I fully understand that this is my opinion (obviously) and that I would honestly like to believe they could be implemented without being to the detriment of the game; let me also state that I fully understand TS is already instinctively descending me for bad-mouthing Alpha 3 again–I’m pretty sure I can take him though.
Now, with some of you frothing at the mouth less, please let me explain (and continue destroying your optic nerves): Custom combos have inherently been paradoxical in their execution. Instead of fostering the customization they’re supposedly implemented for, they always become optimized, repetitive patterns for maximum damage that always become overwhelming in whatever game they’re in. Part of the problem here is that the optimization part is pretty much inevitable merely due to the nature of competition, though they often add extra insult to injury by having invincibility on start-up to just blow through things and the ability to be activated mid-combo to juggle or otherwise combo when things normally wouldn’t and can be activated with 50% bar.
As stated, pretty much every instead of them has created hegemony of “you must defeat someone with a Custom Combo to stand a chance”. Alpha 3? Revolved around V-ism. CvS2? Devolved into A-Groove, largely because it also had Roll-canceling. Street Fighter EX 2+ Alpha (Rainbow Pony Edition)? Excel blows through everything.
Even going with character-specific examples, it stays the same. 3rd Strike? Yun & Gen’ei Jin (and Chunners). SF4: AE? Yun & Gen’ei Jin again (and Fei-long). Capcom Fucking Fighting Jam? Karin Kanizuki, Mistress of Ass-Whoopings Worth 70+%.
(This is pretty much the reason I’m still weary of getting involved with KOF XIII despite it looking like a great game otherwise.)
…Yeah. For something to basically completely defeat its own purpose (“customization”) by basically forcing people to use it and/or have to deal with it if they want to stay competitive just seem to render it rather…pointless. I know “painting the fence” and “Shoshosho” was “hype” or whatever, but that stuff eventually gets extremely tiresome. If anything, never bringing up custom combos again would at least spare people’s hands of having to do so many :dp:s in rapid succession.
Even with all that said, as said above, I would like to be able to think it would could be made workable, if only because of how much I liked CvS2. However, I honestly don’t think it can, unfortunately… It’s not like parry where you can actually make that an actually fair mechanic by putting some risk to it but having it still be usable. Custom Combos are either overpowered and worth using or they aren’t.
(And before anyone tries to argue her as a counter-example, no, Juri’s Feng Shui Engine Ultra doesn’t count. It doesn’t make her into an Alpha character–it makes her into a Darkstalker.)
Yeah.
Good thing that’s not in any modern fighting game. [/trolling]
I’ve always liked CCs, it allowed for a semblance of high risk ToD in games where you wouldn’t expect it.
Comeback mechanics, easy input shortcuts… Basically everything SF4 introduced.
i recomend to you to not talk about games that you dont know, seriously, it takes away any good point that you could bring in your post
edit
also, DLC chars are here to stay, deal with it (yes im pro DLC chars, its WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better than having to pay for a new retail game)
(I sensed a disturbance in the Force.)
I think may be part of the reason I don’t like Custom Combos: I’m not really a fan of ToDs, especially ToDs that start off of invincible things.
I’d argee, but you’re gonna have to be specific considering how large that post is. I’m guessing it relates to Blazblue or something? Because, yeah, I admittedly no next to nothing about that game and I’m more than willing to be corrected and argued with on things that I’m just straight out wrong about.
Whoa their…do you understand Last blade 2 at all? I figure not because player knowledgeable about last blade 2 wouldn’t say that.
I fucking love Last Blade 2. EX mode all the way XD
I never got a chance to play it “seriously” though, wish that and SS4 would come on XBLA with good netcode.
Oooh, I have one: Characters whose execution is not consistent with the rest of the cast like C.Viper in SF4. Like you have all the WW and a bunch of new people who aren’t bad and then you have one character that you have to do random shenanigans just to make her work; and I mean to be functionally playable you have to do things just for her. All that’s done is made less people play her and even less people learn the match up. Same with characters with wacky BnB’s like Rufus or El Fuerte…RSF and Short Fierce as bnb’s is all sorts of shitty. Especially when a good chunk of the cast get more damaging stuff with significantly less effort.
Uhh how is rufus’s bnb wacky?
I think character specific superjumps are really weird though.
IMO, it’s having characters like those that actually help make the game more interesting and contribute to meta-balance.