Hi guys! First time poster here.
I have a problem with tatsus that go over my head. The properties of that move are just so damn odd to me. My main problem is attempting to punish a tatsu that goes over my head. I’ll be crouching (and thus charging my flash), tatsu goes over my head, I attempt to flash as a punish and I just end up getting smacked by the move from the other side.
What’s the best way to punish a tatsu that has passed over your head?
this was discussed not too long ago, I think. I can’t seem to find it though. I remember that cr. fierce is good (I have problems with it trading, though) and some version of strong, probably cr. strong. Cr. normals would be good because you don’t have to risk accidentally standing up.
I’ve said it many different times in many different threads…any move that looks like an uppercut (usually Ryu, Ken, Guile, Boxer, and Claw’s cr.:hp:) will counter a Hurricane Kick while it’s in the middle of the move (whether it’s passing over you or not). Other cr.:hp:s that don’t hit high apply while it is coming down. In general, just make sure you’re facing the right direction. This has been true since World Warrior.
Oh…and you know your execution skills are tight when you can counter a Hurricane Kick with a Shoryuken or Tiger Uppercut while you’re ducking a Hurricane Kick. 
I would also add that, ideally, you want to get good at hitting things with either the very first hitting frame of the Flash Kick or at absolute maximum range of each Flash Kick. The former has invincibility. The latter is extremely hard to counter and is useful for Flash Kicking over projectiles and hitting your opponent. (I live for doing this to people that spam projectiles…not more than hitting them with a ToD combo, though.)
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If you think about it, to flash kick, you have to go from holding down to up, initiating your jumping frames. Most of the time you’ll press your kick button, and you’ll go into your flashkick. However, for that 1 frame jumping frame, you are unable to block. If your not blocking, the hurricane kick will smack you in the face every time. If your going to flash kick, do it before of after the hurricane passes over.
If you have problems with the cr. fierce trade, try hitting them with your cr. fierce towards the farthest reaches of the cr. fierces horizontal range. This is a 100% guaranteed clean hit if done properly. Again, this can be done before they pass over you, or afterwards when your sprite turns around.
Except for the frame or two in which the Hurricane Kick is behind the shoto in question. (Which would make Ryu easier to Flash Kick than Ken in this situation.)
I Flash Kick Hurricane Kicks pretty consistently and I can also DP and Tiger Uppercut them from a crouch, so the “one jumping/standing frame” thing can’t be happening in my case unless I’m always pressing :u:+:k: or :r: during the frame in which Ryu/Ken’s leg is behind them. It’s a matter of executing the motion as quickly and tightly as possible.
So, taking this ideal into consideration, my advice would be to practice doing Flash Kicks while the Hurricane Kick is overhead until you’re consistent at it. In the meantime, in matches where you’re playing to win, use cr.:hp: to hit them clean, make them land on a meaty Sonic Boom if you can, and then start your Sonic Boom games up again.
But, always remember…make sure that you’re facing the right direction. If they’re about to go over your head, wait until you turn around and then hit the button. (Of course, at that point, you’ll have to start watching out for them doing Hurricane Kicks that end right in front of you or right behind you. Let the mind games begin!)
Mmm, I don’t know, from what I’ve seen from the likes of Haru tejyo, Muteki, etc, they usually dont fk if someones on top of them. I don’t know, maybe you are doing it when they’re kicking behind… idk, maybe the up directional and kick take you from standing/blocking to invincible state if your timing is that tight. I would find it kind of silly to risk getting hit and knocked down so you can fk rather than cr. fierce. 0 frames for error isn’t much. I guess the question is, do you feel lucky, punk?
surely the best way is to keep crouched, wait until its passed over your head and then do the firce flash kick, the new distance will hit it.
But I’ve also had the same problem as you had. I can do 100 flash kicks no problem but when a hurricane kick is directly over head and I do a flash kick, I get hit by the hurricance. Same thing with dhalsim drill moves
So thats why I either flash kick it as soon as it see it, or I wait for it to pass over my head and hit it with a round house flash kick.
I’ve noticed that the flash kick has some odd properties about its hit box, the flash kick isnt completly invincable (like it should be) it can be hit by certain moves that are timed in a certain way.
for example, bison’s jumping round house can beat a flash kicking from long range,
a cross up style hurricane can beat flash kick all day long.
I think guile is most under developed character in hd remix, its ovbious not a lot of thought went into improving him cos with just a few simple adjustments guile could easily be a top tier character, and the amount of skill and timing it takes to use guile effectivly has a steep learning curve, so its frustrating that a character with such great potencial cant really get into the top tier bcos of just a few flaws in his design.
suggestions to improve guile
(1) SB’s hits hurricane like DJ’s max out
(2) flash kick is completly invincible
(3) improve start up time OR piority of low forward kick so that it atleast trades with slides
(4) ditch the super flash kick, replace it with a super sonic boom
how would you guys improve guile?
Thanks for your help guys. All of you. I’ll try experimenting with the crouch fierce.
Typically, I only manage to hit a FK against a tatsu when I correctly predict that it’s coming. If I’m at a point where it’s crossing over my head, that’s when I have problems. I could have sworn that I’ve tried cr. fierce before (usually when it comes to knocking something out of the air cr. fierce is my natural second choice) and got knocked out of that, too. Don’t quote me on that, though. I’ll go back and try it out.
The fk is invincible for x amount of frames, depending on what version you do. If your getting hit, its after the invinsiblity has worn off. You should always use the short if it will reach, if not, I think the forward version might have a tad more horizontal range. I think its safest using the rh if they’re that far away. Even if it only has a frame or two of invincibility, it has so much priority that the chance of you getting hit are slim.
Yeah…unless I’m in a zone or fighting the CPU, I’ll usually opt for cr.:hp:.
Besides, thanks to the :r:+:hk: overhead, Guile can start a wonderful mixup game from doing that. He can do a low meaty attack, a meaty overhead, a throw, walk forward and shuffle back outside of their throw range, a meaty Sonic Boom followed by low meaty attack, a meaty Sonic Boom followed by a meaty overhead, a meaty Sonic Boom followed by a throw, or…gasp…pant…a meaty Sonic Boom followed by walking forward and shuffling back outside of their throw range.
Mind games, baby, mind games! Get some!!! The man’s name is Guile, you know. Since the majority of those tricks can be stopped by a Shoryuken, shuffling should definitely be in your repertoire. It’ll especially help against Ryu’s reversal :lp: Shoryuken since you’ll actually be able to block and counter that. Ken…maybe not so much, but at least you hit him.
I’m sorry, but suggestions like these are why I still think you shouldn’t be on the “redesign Guile” team.
Number one would greatly affect his matchups against Ryu and Ken. They’re already slightly in Guile’s favor as is. I’m sorry…but the answer is…don’t spam Sonic Booms predictably. As it is, Ryu and Ken have to anticipate a Sonic Boom from inside Guile’s cr.:mk: range to have a chance of hitting Guile while he’s recovering.
Number two is completely unnecessary. The answer, as I said earlier, is to either learn how to hit with the Flash Kick during his invincible frames and learn how to hit with all versions of it from maximum range. If you can do that well, you won’t need a fully invincible Flash Kick because you’ll have one of the most effective anti-air moves in the game since it covers so much air space.
Number three…ok…that one I might listen to you on…if you can tell me what the current Guile vs. Dhalsim and Guile vs. Dee Jay matchups look like over ten games and why that absolutely has to be adjusted. My understanding was that Guile already got the help he needed against Dhalsim, so…I’m guessing your real problem is with Dee Jay.
Number four would require new animation, so that’s just not ever going to happen.
In closing…here’s my ultimate problem with your first three suggestions…they’re turtle friendly. They allow Guile, an already very good turtling character but an even better rushdown character, to be able to sit there even more. If I were you, I would look at Guile’s most problematic matches and then suggest changes based on how those changes would affect the other 15 matchups he would have.
Whoa partner…you mean to tell me that if Dictator jumps at you and attempts to hit you with his j.:hk: from maximum range, you can’t hit him out of it? This isn’t World Warrior, IrrepressibleGuile, this is HD Remix. His jumping roundhouse doesn’t stay out forever. Why not Flash Kick him before he kicks? Dictator is in the slower half when it comes to jump duration. You should be able to react and hit him with the max range of your Flash Kick. Even if he tries to kick through it, if you get the “flash” frame of the Flash Kick to hit him at max range, it will beat him clean. It can’t be any harder to Flash Kick than Chun Li’s j.:lk: or j.:mk:. Practice.
Well…like I said…you have to make sure you’re facing the right way, too. Plus, go into Training Mode and turn on hitboxes so that you can see where cr.:hp: hits. It’s a great move once you learn it.
Well, remember the goal of the HDR project was to condense tiers, not change the game to the point where tiers had to be reassigned. So yes, Guile has a ton of potential, but since Guile was already mid-tier-ish, Sirlin probably didn’t want to make too many changes.
I definitely feel you on that one. I’ve had plenty of matches where I end up focusing solely on baiting a hurricane. That said, it seems to me that using hurricane to get around sonic booms and hit Guile seems to be the only thing that Ryu has going for him until he gets super. I don’t know Guile very well, so feel free to say I’m wrong, but without hurricane it seems way to easy to be able to sonic boom, bazooka knee, sonic boom, step kick, repeat.
That’s kind of a weird one to me. I’m fine with somersault the way it is.
I can’t comment on this since I don’t play Guile enough.
Interesting. I’m fine with Somersault Justice, but I’m not opposed to adding a Sonic Boom Super. I think it would be interesting to have another projectile based super. I’m thinking along the lines of Sonic Hurricane over Sonic Break. Out of curiosity, why did you suggest this?
How would I improve Guile? I honestly think he’s fine the way he is now. I think his overhead was a big addition to his meaty sonic boom game. I like the fact that he has a mini aegis reflector. If I were to change anything, I’d just make back fist hit crouchers. That’s really just because I suck at meaty sonic boom throw and I wiff a lot of back fists.
First off, I’d like to start by saying that I am personally a huge fan of what Sirlin did with Guile in HDR. With the nerfs recieved by some of Guile bad matchups, and Guiles buffs, I would definatly say Guile has reached high tier (following the 5 tier system of top, high, middle, low, bottem). While Guile may have a steep learning curve, I find it fun that few are able to even approach his potential as a character. The only thing Guile needs to be top tier is the same cr. strong as DJ. That way, the sliders, Guiles 3 bad matchups (Blanka, Dhalsim, Vega) would have to contend with one of the best counter poke weapons in the game.
I agree with you for the most python, but the facts speak for themselves, has a guile player ever won a major tournement. I dont know, but I dont think so. At this years evo how far did any guile players get?
The new rh flash kick is great for distance attack and defence but its not really effective against slides, guile needs what you said an anti poke weapon simular to dj’s
@1hitparry> guiles super flash kick dosnt have the intimidation and psychilogical edge that ryu, honda or balrogs super has. when ryu or balrog have a super you need to switch your playing style to be able to react to that super. Guile super flash kick is kinda pitiful, the range sucks and It dosnt have the psychiological factor of balrog’s or ryu’s. A super sonic boom would give guile that edge.
I dont find DJ’s or dhalsom slide to be that bothersome, cos you can hit them out of it or hit them on the recovery frames, blanka’s and vega’s slide are tricky to deal with as theres no real adequate counter
Actually, I think saying guile is under developed was a bit harsh so I retract that.
I couldn’t agree more. Sirlin did a great job with Guile. The overhead was a really inspired addition (although it would be nice if it could actually hit a crouching Blanka), the super is useful now, and the roundhouse flash kick is both a nice offensive and defensive tool.
As you said, Guile’s problem is slides. Being able to counter those would basically remove Guile’s remaining bad matchups (here are the matchups as I see them now, the first number being Guile’s):
Cammy: 7-3
Zangief: 7-3
Fei: 6-4
Hawk: 6-4
Honda: 6-4
Ken: 5-5
Dee Jay: 5-5
Dictator: 5-5
Sagat: 4-6
Chun: 4-6
Ryu: 4-6
Dhalsim: 4-6
Boxer: 4-6
Blanka: 3-7
Claw: 3-7
Compared to ST, Guile is considerably better. After all, a character is only as good as his worst matchup. In ST, both Dhalsim and (Old) Sagat were absolute nightmares who neutered Guile completely. Now, even his worst matchups are winnable.
Having something similar to Dee Jay’s crouching MP would solve Guile’s remaining problems. There is no need for anything else. Good post, Python!
I dont know the history of the major SF tournements, but on average how far do guile players get?
So, is it just me or does Jump fierce, Stand fierce xx Boom, Backhand just plain not work against certain characters?
Also, just realised you can combo stand fierce xx FK from a jump attack, now that’s what I call a mans combo.
There was a dude doing pretty well at this years evo with pink guile, I want to say he was called Alex Kelly but I’m not 100%.
Don’t know if I feel you on those matchups. I think Guile beats Ken, especially because Ken’s short Hurricane can still be punished even if it hits Guile. The Hurricane Kick is the Shoto’s main method of getting in, and Ken’s has more frames than Ryu’s short. I’d say 6-4 Guile.
With Dee-Jay, I think Guile is at a loss due to Dee-Jays superior ground options. Cr. mp + slide can be a pain for Guile, and their projectiles are both charged so that’s a wash. Dee-Jays st. RH can also stuff booms, and his MU punch can counter a boom and then fire back with a MO. 5.5-4.5 or 6-4 Dee-Jay.
Anyone agree here? Disagree?