FADC combos and FADC Ultra combos

[Merkilo]

How bout we get rid of ryu’s dp -> fadc -> ultra and give him a c.lk-> ultra i’d be happy with that, and the OP would stop complaining.

[B1ack_F0x]

Anyone worth their’ salt should know by now that tier lists are highly influenced by how easy it is for each character to land their’ ultra. For the most part, FADC combos are the easiest way to do this, and only comparatively few characters have this option.

What I want to discuss here is this:

Is this total bullshit?

FADC combos are freaking easy. Should Ryu be able to land 400 damage on you because he sneaked in a lp dp, which he would have FADC’d anyway, so the attempt is almost completely safe?

Would you prefer to see a Street Fighter where the tier list is not governed in such a way?

For the upcoming SF4 Dash, I would very much like to keep FADC combos in, but not necessarily have them synonymous with the ultra system. I think the game would be much more interesting if this happened:

-Increase hitstun. More hitstun means more options for normals based FADC combos, giving you room to create your own custom super combos, if you will.

-You can NEVER land an ultra after an FADC juggle. Certain ultras may be allowed, depending upon whether or not they are deemed balanced for the fact with the new SF4 Dash system.

Rufus’ ultra springs to mind. He sort of needs to be able to have access to this thing, though the damage may be reduced to keep his output in line with other characters. Ideally, though, I’d like to see all ultras as standalone attacks.

-Ultra properties changed to make them easy enough to land without the necessity for FADC’s. Examples include lower startup, larger hitboxes, and lower recovery times. Changes like this would make Ultras more like Super Turbo super combos.

-Damage reduction effects hauled in. With the threat of FADC ultra combos gone, there won’t be such a need for massive damage reduction effects, which allows previously mentioned FADC combos become more viable as an alternative to EX moves and super combos.

In my opinion, these would make SF4 dash a much more interesting game than SF4 is now. There would be more room for skilled combos, and no fear of eating a clumsy FADC’d DP into ultra. This would help the rushdown side of the game too.

This would also directly help lower tier characters, as FADC ultra combos were only helping the stronger characters. More balanced tiers = yay.

Discuss.

WTF? Stop this BS!

/thread

[Kurage]

FADC into Ultra is fine…

The only 2 problems are trading srk and juggle into ultra…this is got to go(looking at Sagat & Ryu)

Some characters just need to to juggle properly like Chun and Fei…

Gouken has FADC and other ways to ultra…maybe he’s unrated but as of now he is NOT high tier…

[System_1]

well zangief, akuma, blanka are pretty high tier and their ultra are one of the hardest to pull of and hit the opponent, i think the tier list are like this coz all roundest, person that is solid is pretty high and has good matches, ryu for instqance has not really got a bad match-up so he is rated extremly high.

[Kurage]

well zangief, akuma, blanka are pretty high tier and their ultra are one of the hardest to pull of and hit the opponent, i think the tier list are like this coz all roundest, person that is solid is pretty high and has good matches, ryu for instqance has not really got a bad match-up so he is rated extremly high.

BLANKA IS NOT HIGH TIER … please get this idea out of your head…

[Death_By_Nines]

This thread is fail.

[purbeast]

It’s 1 more free attempt than most characters have access to, and either way, the THREAT is often worse than the technique itself. The fact that this even exists has significant psychological impact at high level play.

my main doesn’t have a crossover.

CHANGE THE GAME BECAUSE BALROG DOES NOT HAVE A CROSSOVER AND OTHERS DO!! IT IS NOT FAIR!!!

1/4th of the chacters have a SHoryuken move.

CHANGE THE GAME SO EVERYONE CAN HAVE AN EASY TO PERFORM ANTI AIR MOVE LIKE A SHORYUKEN!!

see how stupid that sounds?

stop whining and adapt, that is the entire point of this game. the FADC into ultra are fine and a huge strategy in this game.

[Kuma_Oni]

Maybe you should block on your opponents wake up instead of eating sloppy FADC Ultras.

[highlulu]

Cliffs:

1. OP is a troll.

2. This thread is useless.

3. Sagat is beast.

4. OP is a troll.

5. OP is a troll.

/thread

the unfortunate thing is that he is not simply trolling… he’s been around the ken forums for a while and i’m pretty sure based on previous posts that he’s 100% serious in this thread -_-;

[eltwopee]

wow @ this thread. Please never start a thread again.

[DHEvil]

Half of the posts in this thread are people having their’ lulz and feeling the need to excercise their’ superiority complex.

If you don’t want to discuss this, don’t post.

[System_1]

It has been pointed out in some posts above this:

You focused your discussion about balance on ultras and ultras setups, but you definitely FAILED cause what makes chars good are not ultras, or ONLY ultras.

Chun has lev 1 focus which leaves her at +1, boxer on the other hand has a crap focus attack.
Would it be better to balance the focus attack and make it the same for every char?
Or anti airs?
Or wake up reversals?

Have you ever thought about the fact that not having an ultra to combo in could be a good balancing tool?

Obviously the some aspects of ultras may be tuned, like Sagat’s damage or giving more useful ultras to some chars (guile and vega), but the same goes for many aspects of the game…

[DHEvil]

I think you might have misunderstood my overall intention. The intention was not a discussion of the balance (though with hindsight I can see why that would come across in my original post), but more about making the second iteration of SF4 more interesting, and with a more complete, and inclusive system.

Certain characters being able to FADC their’ ultras, as I see it, is akin to allowing only some characters to use V-ism in Alpha 3. It just doesn’t feel right. It doesn’t feel complete to have such a gamechanging mechanic open to only certain characters.

I think SF4 would become alot more interesting if the playing field was leveled as I suggested, a side effect of it being more balanced tiers, which is always a positive.

Everyone would have access to their’ own, unique, and poweful FADC combos. Everyone would also only be able to use ultras as standalone moves.

[Kuma_Oni]

Bombing run in bound me thinks… reeeeeeeeeeeeee BOOM!

[Tanner]

i’m not sure what the OP is saying should happen. That ALL characters FADC to ultras or none FADC to ultras. I personally love the fact that most characters can’t ultra for free… it costs meter so it’s NOT FREE. Maybe the op wants everyone to be able to low forward xx ultra or some bullshit like that.

I love how people get on and think they know shit about balance… I’m sorry DHEvil but how many fighting games have you worked on? I’m willing to bet NONE so don’t sit there and think you know more about balancing fighting games than Capcom… the leading fighting game maker for 20 years.

[DHEvil]

i’m not sure what the OP is saying should happen. That ALL characters FADC to ultras or none FADC to ultras. I personally love the fact that most characters can’t ultra for free… it costs meter so it’s NOT FREE. Maybe the op wants everyone to be able to low forward xx ultra or some bullshit like that.

I love how people get on and think they know shit about balance… I’m sorry DHEvil but how many fighting games have you worked on? I’m willing to bet NONE so don’t sit there and think you know more about balancing fighting games than Capcom… the leading fighting game maker for 20 years.

Okay, second half of your post was entirely irrelevant but I’ll answer the first half.

I don’t want ANY characters to be able to FADC into ultra. That would just be ideal. I want Ultras to be something more like Super Turbo super combos, where they are not comboable except for in certain, rare juggle states.

There would still be an ultras tier list, where one ultra is better than another, but it won’t be to the extent where the game is entirely different when considering one over the other.

Honda/Vega/Guile etc ultras = nigh on useless.

Ryu/Sagat/Rufus/Balrog etc ultras = gdlk.

[parabellum]

Is it too much to point out that pretty much every character can, right now…pull a full ultra off a LV2 focus dash?

Isn’t that universal enough?

I agree that its annoying that some characters get to combo into ultra pretty much for free…but that is just part of fighting games…imbalance will always be there.

If you homogenize things too much, the game becomes really boring.

If you make the characters too imbalanced, you get matches like Nu vs Tager in BB…where Nu is essentially untouchable if she sticks to her gameplan.

[media=youtube]_0KgQbxKefs[/media]

I’m still an intermediate level player at best, but imho, SF4 is balanced enough.

[DHEvil]

Is it too much to point out that pretty much every character can, right now…pull a full ultra off a LV2 focus dash?

Isn’t that universal enough?

I agree that its annoying that some characters get to combo into ultra pretty much for free…but that is just part of fighting games…imbalance will always be there.

If you homogenize things too much, the game becomes really boring.

If you make the characters too imbalanced, you get matches like Nu vs Tager in BB…where Nu is essentially untouchable if she sticks to her gameplan.

[media=youtube]_0KgQbxKefs[/media]

I’m still an intermediate level player at best, but imho, SF4 is balanced enough.

I’m pretty sure Blanka can’t, unless he can link it in off of his cr.mk in the space of time required. Not entirely sure of this but for now I’ll count Blanka out.

And be honest… a lvl 2 focus crumple is not really a realistic option, and is certainly not nearly as good as an FADC. It’s unsafe, easy (for the most part) to block/anticipate, and lvl 2 focus attacks can’t be combo’d into. Ryu can link his ultra off of a crouching jab, and the same applies for Sagat.

EDIT:

Nice vid by the way. It does illustrate how well Capcom has done balancing SF4 with 25 characters, when Arc messed up on this matchup when there are only 10 (I think) characters in Blazblue.

Still, things could be better, and there’s no harm in exploring possibilities.

[Projectjustice]

well zangief, akuma, blanka are pretty high tier and their ultra are one of the hardest to pull of and hit the opponent, i think the tier list are like this coz all roundest, person that is solid is pretty high and has good matches, ryu for instqance has not really got a bad match-up so he is rated extremly high.

Do some 09ers ever do their homework?:tdown:

[Projectjustice]

Okay, second half of your post was entirely irrelevant but I’ll answer the first half.

I don’t want ANY characters to be able to FADC into ultra. That would just be ideal. I want Ultras to be something more like Super Turbo super combos, where they are not comboable except for in certain, rare juggle states.

There would still be an ultras tier list, where one ultra is better than another, but it won’t be to the extent where the game is entirely different when considering one over the other.

Honda/Vega/Guile etc ultras = nigh on useless.

Ryu/Sagat/Rufus/Balrog etc ultras = gdlk.

Then go play ST. For fuck sakes you’re a fucking idiot , this is SF4, not ST.

There is nothing wrong with FADC into Ultra, it requires meter and skill.

What they need to fix are free Ultras that some characters like Ryu jab.SRK Ultra juggle have. While most of the cast can only connect a Ultra with FADC or a punishing situation. They also have to fix FADC juggles on some characters like Ken. He doesnt get a full ultra off on their opponent cause of this even after it connects.