i’m with keo-bass. There are Fighting games for all tastes.
Samurai shodown V Special for example
Every move do the same small blockstun (5f), so you can almost never rely in frame advantage to move on from neutral to pressure. Plus, you’re forced to rely on range and spacing to keep you away from quick counters to many pokes.
The damange of attacks is proportional to how long you stayed withouth using attacks, so there’s a big incentive to press attacks carefully.
And like all other samurai shodown games, theres a much bigger risk/reward in heavy attacks compared to other fg series.
It’s probably the most strategy-oriented fg i played. I play games like melty blood, that would be almost in the other side of the spectrum in terms of how pressure/momentum works. I like both melty and samurai shodown and wouldn’t want one to “become” the other…diversity is always better than homogenization.
you’re setting the bar for playing the game perfectly agonizingly low if all you need to do to play the game perfectly is to understand the connection between pressing a button and a punch happening and pressing a direction and your character moving that direction. if an enormous part of the movesets and strategies are a mystery to you, and you have little to no way to introduce yourself to them without supplementary material, which is largely the case with almost all fighting games, that is absolutely inaccessible. I don’t even think your completely new player would even understand why movement and normals are more important on a fundamental level.
I guess ‘accessible’ is a nebulous term and I don’t want to start arguing semantics, but why would so many new players simply resort to randomly pressing buttons and directions (mashing) if these games were so accessible?
While execution barrier is game-dependent (honestly in the age of online gaming there’s no reason to have 1-frame attacks), having some skill for certain harder-to-use mechanics is a decent trade-off to the amount of damage/whatever you can do in that particular game. It… is too big of a variable for me to put into words. Damn this shit’s complicated, lol
However, IMO I think most of what irks new players isn’t all execution… it’s psychological. Been that way since the beginning days when SF2 made fighting games the hot shit.
I’ve known a number of people… one person who only started playing fighters when SF4 first released… he wasn’t that great. However, fast-forward to now, and every time he touches you with Cammy, you’re eating an impressive 1-frame pinking combo and then gotta watch out for other shit after the knockdown.
Another person… actually a younger kid who started with SF4 (lol, I sense something here), and was just mashing maybe a couple of buttons while playing Guile. Now all of a sudden, during one scrub-run tournament at a local game store with Super SF4, he’s beating around dude’s almost double his age via doing the basics of spacing and punishment!
And the others well… when they play an FPS, I dunno. Some of those people can play the likes of Halo and CoD like crazy, and actually take time to learn things of those games, yet plop em down in front of a fighting game and have em go against someone online, they bitch more against the game (or the opponent) then wanting to figure out how to better themselves.
It’s something in the psyche with people who manage to figure out fighters/like those games, compared with the masses who just wanna do stuff and not feel frustrated. Fun in the face of competition/figuring out shit? Maybe requires a separate topic…
Does anyone know of a person who plays the shit outta multiplayer FPS games and asked them why they’ll spend time learning aspects of those compared to fighting games? Execution differences cannot count as an answer in this case cause some FPS games with practice you can do some stupid shit (I’m looking at you, Quake Live) to get a leg-up on others.
Fighting games are really boring when you don’t know what you’re doing, buttons mashing is fun only for the first 2 minutes. even when you learned the game to some level and you know how to do a combo or 2 and beat the cpu it becomes boring again. The most skilled players could come up with shit on their own but for most of us we learned to play by watching and playing against other people at arcades.
I wish we had written guides for these games and I’m not talking about the internet but actual hard copies with tons of screenshots,combos,explanations,arrows,top player interviews etc…just like it was in the 90’s LOL.
This is probably the only genre where buying the strategy guide along with the game wouldn’t take much from the experience and will actually help you(alot).
As I see it we need to spend less time looking for things like: how to do certain move,strategy,set up,combo,match up etc and we need more time to actually practice that combo or set up.
The less time we spend looking for stuff the more time will have to practice that stuff.
But isn’t the competitive scene (assuming that’s what this sizable portion would of SRK would call themselves) niche within the niche?
"Human kind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain something of equal value must be lost. That is Alchemy's first law of equivalent exchange. In those days we really believed that to be the world's one and only truth. But the world isn't perfect and the law is incomplete. Equivalent exchange doesn't encompass everything that goes on here, but I still choose to believe in its principle. That all things do come at a price. That there's an ebb and a flow, a cycle that the pain we went through did have a reward and that anyone who's determined and perseveres will get something of value in return, even if it's not what they expected."
Seriously how easy do you guys want games to be? With things like SF4 and all these newer games where you can just mash do to moves half the time do you want to be able to mash combos too? As for one frame stuff seriously I highly doubt one frame is actually one frame in todays day and age is actually one frame. Stuff is so lenient now. Do you know how many combo videos ive done with out even playing the game where I supposedly have done one frame stuff? Come on. Not everyone is going to be the star football player of their HS team, not everyone is going to be the best video game player. That doesnt mean you cant still enjoy something though. Part of the fun of games is getting better at them, and doing combos that are harder. People are such babies to even be complaining about half this stuff. You realize back in the days of arcades you know what other people had to practice too. We had to practice DPs. Hell doing stuff like zangeifs SPD was mind blowing. SFA came around and akuma had double hcb+P as a super and you had to do qcfX2 in the air to do his air fireball super. And you know what, as simple as that sounds, when that stuff first was going on. People thought that was hard to do too. But you know what? People that want to play the game or get good at it, learned how to do it and practiced. New games are already so easy. If people give up on them now, you know what maybe they just werent cut out for it. You know I cant even count how many video game tournaments I won when I was still entering. But heres something too, you know what? I like sonic games, I like mega man games, I like RPGs. But you know what as well? Skillwise im just not as good at them as fighting games that I can do super plays in them(cant think of anything else the equivalent to say winning tournaments)it just wasnt meant to be. Doesnt mean I dont like the games or cant enjoy them. If people want to bitch about there being some execution barrier in games, well maybe you just suck and you dont like the game as much as you thought you did. For fighting games supposedly cater to hardcore players… umm not everyone that plays fighting games enters tournaments. Hell i was playing fighting games for years before I even KNEW I could enter a tournament and I just got lucky enough that skillwise I found I could make money off it so I did. But ya not everyone that plays games plays to enter a tournament. If you start entering tournaments that kinda makes you lean more towards the side of being more serious about the game in general id think. So ya if you want to play a game, where people are going to make money off of, those just frame links whatever you want to call it are gonna pretty important. If you want to play for fun, dont worry about doing crazy stuff cuz obviously that isnt for you.
I do. Most of my friends all they play is fps. Bought a bunch of um fighting games as gifts… most just give up after a few matchs…most try to play with the analog on there controllers. I grew up in the arcades in the 90z. I cant play on a pad to save my fucking life . Most of my friends are usually 1st or second in every cod match I used to be that good. But they all refer to the genre as button mashers… only one who a big tekken fan will usually play. But most complain after a couple matchs that they cant play fighting games anymore the pads just destroy there wrist . I have to go charge chars when on pad. Like when I was a teen on sf2 super nes…
Then there all the shit layered in sf4 fadc…kof hd combos ,neomax with absurd commands,
Even guilty gear with all the stupid red yellow purple cancles.
Then there the long combo games bb. Marvels from orgins to umvc…most dont like it cuz they feel its guatar hero games
Tekken the rage natsu system . Which sucks to win with and to loss to . Even tho the flames look cool
Im up late delirious ramblin…there a million things in everygame to hate if new players can even get past the nightmare of tryin to do anything on there controller with out bloody hands an aarthritis. …so they go back to cod left trigger aim right trigger shoot. Moba 1234 point n click
yeah the one frame shit ruins it. But most even old goats I know still have muscle memory for ken ryu. Dpz and hadukens sweep
. I play juri have not played before ultra. Tried to play a few matchs with bbhood. Spent the whole time trying to get my fucking mic workin. I play mostly on xbox. Finally started using my ps3 for the anime games. Persona u. Undernight . Dbc…
I remember Capcom tried to advertise SFIV as an easier more accessible game but curiously someone at snk (i can’t remeber who?) pointed out, if capcom wants to make SF more accessible why they don’t make supers/moves to be performed with just a push of a button!?,lol
I have to wonder why people recommend sf4 for beginners in fighter, its counterproductive imo. Yeah street fighter may be popular but its not place to learn fighters in general. It has specific nuances that you rarle see in other games so it almost becomes useless knowledge later on in other games.
It’s because it’s one of the few that can still teach people (or force them to learn) the basics that overlap with other fighting games in general. Poking, spacing and footsies… little stuff like that, similar to Capcom’s original goal of building SF4 off of SF2 (though with obvious extras, obviously. Damn that was redundant).
If by “few” you mean every last fighter that comes into existence than yes. Don;t get me wrong sf4 does teaches basic but it taught in arbitrary manner couple with artificial barrier. If i want to teach basic than might as well send them to play sf2 since its not couple with subsystem to distract people. (speaking of ultra/ focus/ ex /super)
I stand behind the notion that game should teach when and where to use certain things, now how to do them.
I don’t disagree. I think I actually could have spent the effort to say it better. Conversely, I think the “combat” v “strategy” analogy was maybe taken too literally, but if that’s the biggest sticking point, I can’t be mad.
Regarding the current conversation…
…are we still talking about the interaction between new players and execution? It seems like people are either talking about one or the other. o_o;
I think talking about how the two interact gives some important context to the conversation and adds some perspective.
I don’t know how that makes any sense at all. I’ve played the guitar personally for well over 10 years and most people don’t even get to the point where they play decent sounding music until years into playing an instrument. But a “musician” doesn’t look at an instrument they’ve been learning for years and say, “whelp this is too hard so i might as well quit”. People quit because they don’t have resolve, and they also don’t set appropriate/realistic expectations and that’s the real conversation here. Lets use music as an example. Violin is a VERY difficult instrument to learn. But if you put the hours in you can make your violin not sound like a dying cat after a lot of hard work and practice. However, if you’ve been trained through other instruments that with only a few hours experience (the way you can master most other video game play styles) within a few hours and those are the expectations you’ve become accustomed to as a standard, then why wouldn’t you think that this time would be the same thing. Thus people’s standards would be that they can be lead violin in the orchestra the same way an sf player thinks they can become Daigo without having the appropriate time commitment and resolve.
The other example is that you get out what you put into anything. Because again, the person who sits in the music room for 5 hours a day will get to the point where they become in tune with the instrument and eventually get it to do what they want from it. And they will do this (sometimes not always because some are gifted and thats just a part of life), faster than the person that doesnt most times.
The point is, there is a technical hurdle but most people dont want to put the work in to get over that hurdle. Once you’re over that hurdle, the level at which you can function is endless. But until you get over the hurdle, its a grind… and this is the case for SF and any other real skills in life. Our generation (myself included as I’m only 27) have so many things with instant gratification that they really dont understand the concept of reward from hard work the way generations in the past have. Really practicing gets to the point where you can make your character do what you want. Its just when people want to chill and play a game most times they want to be good and want gratifications but the fighting game genre doesn’t offer that immediately. Its only through hard work and practice do you get small amounts of gratification back. I mean its like training to be a fighter (also boxed for 10+ years). The gratification is rewarded through hard work and dedication in small doses over long period of time. And that’s the beauty of fighting games.
