Execution Barrier: Why is this still here?

[atirador]

Already mentioned that DPs aren’t in the list of unnecessary motions, which Mike described when he made his statement declaring anything more than a quarter circle, dp, sonic boom, flash kick, and 360 as unnecessary (and the last one comes with the caveat that it should have jump protection).

It’s worth mention that SFxT got rid of all “double” motions for supers (Zangief players could do standing supers all day), and that didn’t make that game any more newbie friendly or succesful. Also, BlazBlue (at least the only one I’ve played, Calamity Trigger) had the option to bind special moves to the right analog stick and that didn’t make the game a hit among non-FG players either.

And let’s not talk again about the huge success that Skullgirls was for being so easy to jump into. That game was even a Free Game one month on PS Plus and people kept avoiding it.

I think we can all agree that SFxT’s success, or unfortunate lack thereof, was due to several other circumstances. SFxT was an easier game to press buttons in overall, but still retained some technical aspects due to moderately long combos, bind states and team tags. Gems and the three bar meter management kinda cluttered up the brain space that new and low level players could have used to focus on what were surprisingly easy commands for most characters.

BlazBlue, for what it’s worth, is probably in the top five fighting franchises with real name recognition among non-FGC gamers in the US. The franchise has real fans behind it because of its emphasis on the modes of the game(s) that don’t necessarily pertain to versus mode. The best part is that many non-FGC BB players never “quit” the game because they never ended up heading to ranked mode like the casual members of many other franchises; many BB players I’ve known or talked to have always had enough friends who also played the game to keep the game interesting and playable either in person or online. Regarding the simplicity of the controls, I think BB was one of the first franchises of the past generation with a real push for an accessibility control scheme, but I will agree (if this is the point that you’re alluding to) that it was a pretty pre-historic implementation; I cannot comment on the success or failure of the implementation outside of my own opinion because everyone I know who plays/played BB never ended up using the simple mode scheme (even the non-FGC players)–maybe that tells me all I need to know about it.

While I personally don’t have any stake in your particular point, I wanted to bring up these ideas because I think your point would probably stand on more solid ground if you didn’t try to link the success (or perceived success) of the games you’re talking about directly with their approach to simple controls because there are so many other factors that get in the way.

Well, it’s kind of my point too: you take out something that MOST players like in FGs hoping that will bring new players but you end up pissing the fans and not attracting new players.

As you so eloquently put it, there are so many other factors that get in the way of FGs being huge that messing with one of the foundations of the genre (execution, hand to eye coordination and skill) may not have a positive impact on sales and just may drive away the existing fan base.

We already a huge array of FGs with different entry-level requirements and there’s always Smash too, for those who cannot do a simple motion…

FG will never be REAL big and that’s just the way things are, those who invest in the game may reap the benefits. Those who sincerely think that doing a DP or a Super is too difficult and is seriously blocking their enjoyment of the game will never be a fan of the genre, so cathering to them is pointless.

[crotchpuncha]

Yet it’s pretty clear that if Mike made a game that was less combo intensive (say, more 3rd Strike than Skullgirls), he’d still keep the entry level execution as low as it is in Skullgirls. Everything he’s said about not having anything more complex than a DP or a 360 motion, etc. are meant to be for any and all fighting games, not just stuff that’s combo-centric.

In any case, all this does is make it so that people start playing closer to competitive level play, since they’re less worried about pulling basic stuff off, and more concerned about dealing with the match and figuring advanced stuff out.

Congrats to Mike Z but it’s also pretty clear that not everyone’s she’s agrees with him either. Thats the other problem with this thread, its arguments of philosophy being stated as facts.

[petran79]

The problem with this is that you’re using a method of “balancing” that gets less and less effective the higher the level of play becomes and the better the players get. If a move is broken if not for the execution requirement, it eventually comes to the point where the move, regardless of its execution requirement becomes broken anyway.

A games balance is always judged at the highest levels of play. Saying that a game’s balance is fine because all the overpowered stuff is hidden behind execution barriers is just flat our lazy balancing.

When I played some 3S matches and I was using Remy, I was recommended to learn the machine gun technique. Constantly charging back/forward and throwing projectiles. For me that move could be considered broken as well since I couldnt do a thing about it. But I havent seen it used that much in high level play.

Anyway, that was too difficult for me to do it constantly with precision. Mostly 3-4 projectiles. Those players are on a totally different league!

[keo-bas]

** there are so many other factors that get in the way of FGs being huge **

We already a huge array of FGs with different entry-level requirements

FG will never be REAL big and that’s just the way things are

This.

[Ghidorah14]

FG will never be REAL big and that’s just the way things are

Not with that attitude, they wont.

Those who sincerely think that doing a DP or a Super is too difficult and is seriously blocking their enjoyment of the game will never be a fan of the genre, so cathering to them is pointless.

DPs and Supers arent hard…for us. We’re so used to them, that we can do them without really even thinking. But to someone whose never played anything like SF before? They’re not the most intuitive inputs.

And if you truly believe that trying to cater to new players who have difficulty with inputs you take for granted is pointless, well, there’s your reason why FGs will never be big.

[atirador]

FG will never be REAL big and that’s just the way things are

Not with that attitude, they wont.

So if I truly, really, deeply believe with all my heart that they can, they will be?

[Pertho]

I think this has gotten a wee bit off the rocker. Lets get back to some basics of the thread:

Having motions be hard for the sake of it is bad for a couple of reasons: 1) It makes it harder for beginners, 2) adds extraneous difficulty which in the case of a lot of move is just there for the sake of it.

720 command grabs present an interesting situation because this motion is hard even for experienced players. The number of people who can legitimately do a standing 720 is ridiculously small. This is the one instance where the command puts some serious restrictions of when it can be done. On the downside this means that grapplers aren’t able to have their supers on command like other characters; whether you feel this is good is kind of personal, for the devs this is a design choice.

As far as beginners go, double motions are really awkward. DPs probably come second and fuck it all if I’m teaching somebody how to chicken wing. Regardless of my ability to do all of these, after extensive observation I can safely say that some of the motions can present issues for newer players. By the growth of SF4, its been shown that people will overcome these if they really want to but then there is the question of whether there is any value to that extra input in chicken wing (it doesn’t really overlap with anything so meh).

From the popularity of smash, and from the admittance of some of its players, they took it more seriously because some of them found regular FG controls hard. This means, conclusively, that there are people who will give up on this if they find it too hard. Then the situation is: where do we put the right amount of accessible to do the most benefit? Special moves could definitely use the help. 360s and 720s are by far the most contentious.

At a high level we can reliably do these basic things. Whether the input is hard or not, we are gonna learn how to do it. Barring 360s, is there really any merit to making a move hard to do for the sake of it? It seems like all it really does is inconvenience us and make it harder for beginners.

Just Frame moves seem to live in that world too where they are hard to do for the sake of sort of having them. I personally don’t like Just Frames, its easily THE stupidest thing to base a character around; on the other hand Electric God Wind Fists are hype as fuck and @Patroklos gave you them warm and fuzzies when you hit his JF stuff; C.Viper is kind of similar in that she only really makes sense if you are doing her cancels.

Now take a moment back and realize that FG, specially japanese ones, try to cater to a lot of people. If you don’t believe this, look at the crying over XRD’s roster (and SCV as well). training mode people are gonna want their character that lets them training mode. Whether or not these have merit in existing is technically a topic of discussion. For better or worse, C.Viper got to around for free because not everybody had the execution for her (which was only and still kind of is required just for her).

Side note: All things considered, Skull Girls has one of the more frustrating combo systems. Its really easy to fuck up combos in that game. I enjoy it a lot, but some characters require certain paths that are easy to fuck up.

[Shin_Akuma]

FG will never be REAL big and that’s just the way things are, those who invest in the game may reap the benefits. Those who sincerely think that doing a DP or a Super is too difficult and is seriously blocking their enjoyment of the game will never be a fan of the genre, so cathering to them is pointless.

And if you truly believe that trying to cater to new players who have difficulty with inputs you take for granted is pointless, well, there’s your reason why FGs will never be big.

I’m just going to leave this here.

“If [your objective] is to make the best possible SF game, then catering to novices is obviously going to get in your way.” ― Seth Killian, 1998

[Komatik]

At a high level we can reliably do these basic things. Whether the input is hard or not, we are gonna learn how to do it. Barring 360s, is there really any merit to making a move hard to do for the sake of it? It seems like all it really does is inconvenience us and make it harder for beginners.

Yes. Attention as a resource for strong punisher moves in neutral is a good example. The move needs to be strong to be able to punish a lot of things, but the attention needed to be able to do the harder or longer input in time automatically detracts from the attention you use to defend against jumpins and other out of the blue oddities.

It’s similar to how in Starcraft it’s not about being able to manage two drops at once - having to manage two drops at once means you have a harder time managing your production or defending against an attack against an expansion. All are tasks you can learn to do in the “doesn’t matter anymore” sense that people use to argue in this thread. But when the situation is taken as a totality, it becomes impossible because human attention is limited, even at the absolute top level of play.

[BB_Hoody]

@Pertho Yeah lets get back on track. How’s about we come up with ideas where a middle ground can be reached? Easier execution, and easier time learning the game, but without removing depth or potential for growth. Smash as I said before is arguably the best example. So should other fighters and potential new IPs implement ideas from Smash into their control scheme and execution requirements? Like maybe a DP requiring just up+ punch button. But to keep it fair. Non ex ones have no invincibility on start up. It’d still make for a great anti air, but only the EX version will make for a great reversal due to the eawy input. Just an idea people don’t kill me.

[Shin_Akuma]

@d3v Can you (or anyone else) explain to me the problem with splitting the player base between “Normal” and “Easy Mode” players? I mean, SF5 is console exclusive so there you go, problem solved. As long as the entire player base is playing the same game on the same console, then there’s really no excuse to not implement this feature. Everyone’s happy.

As weird as this may seem, I’d rather have stricter execution (ST) as opposed to more lenient execution (SF4), because the stricter execution requirements demand more accuracy. It decreases the chances of accidental inputs significantly.
I feel like I have more control.

So why force players who don’t want easier inputs, why force them to use something that they see as a detriment?

[Pertho]

Not every game has easy mode so using wont really teach them shit.

[Kwyjibo]

The problem with this is that you’re using a method of “balancing” that gets less and less effective the higher the level of play becomes and the better the players get.

Hence them being better players. What you’re saying is a good thing…a consequence of becoming a better player is being able to use “hard to use” moves in difficult situations.

So being a better player means game balance is no longer applicable? If the consequence of being a better player is being able to exploit poor game design, then the game need to be fixed. The only exception to this I can think of is if the game is made better for the exploit. Q3 strafe jumping comes to mind. But in Q3 everyone can strafe jump, since the gameplay is symmetrical.

[Sephiroth73003]

Well personally I’m all a fan of getting rid of the DP or crazy input motions just because a lot of times they cause overlap and for an avid fighting gamer overlap can lead to accidental inputs which are very frustrating. Especially when odd stuff happens on screen and you get accidental inputs because someone crossed you up, your chicken block buffered a reverse DP, or something stupid. You also get stupid tight buffer windows on some moves like half circle inputs in KOF13 which have to be done intentionally slow for it to register correctly for some reason. Speed of an input shouldn’t ever effect whether it comes out. Street Fighter IV would be much more satisfying if DP didn’t out prioritize every other god damn move and I have to literally stop everything i’m doing when i walk forward and slow things down so I don’t accidentally get one.

However, certain moves have shit input for a reason like charge characters. Bison with walk forward scissors or guile with instant boom would beyond retarded. 360 / 720’s i feel should be easier as doing them raw should be an option.

Honestly I’ve never met a scrub who couldn’t learn quarter circle inputs pretty quickly, it’s the more complicated ones that cause an issue imo.

[Shin_Akuma]

Not every game has easy mode so using wont really teach them shit.

What’s to teach? Normal mode would have ST inputs and easy mode would have SF4 inputs. That’s it.

So being a better player means game balance is no longer applicable? If the consequence of being a better player is being able to exploit poor game design, then the game need to be fixed. The only exception to this I can think of is if the game is made better for the exploit. Q3 strafe jumping comes to mind. But in Q3 everyone can strafe jump, since the gameplay is symmetrical.

RC in CvS2.

[grumpy64]

I believe the hard work should be on match up knowledge, knowing which move to use in what situation, reading patterns and opponent tendencies, tendencies of characters, how to use meter and when, etc. That is all a blast to learn, however again the robotic non thinking part of fighting games (more muscle memory) is what should be minimized as much as possible. Again while keeping the intended diversity of the game.

If a person can’t be bothered to learn execution do you really think the will take the time to learn more advanced stuff like meta game and Reading opponents. I’m not disagreeing with your general sentiment though.

[ukyo_rulz]

The attention drain ends up balancing the punish, but simplifying the input means you have to remove the punish or the move will become broken.

Moves don’t “become” broken. They are broken or they aren’t. Execution is the FG equivalent of sweeping dust under the rug. The room was always dirty. The dirt was just hidden. Simplifying the input just puts the problem out in the open from the get-go, achieving the mature end-game faster.

Wait a minute, if all this motions are fine, what is this “execution barrier” we keep hearing about on this thread, then?

The barrier is the “price of entry to fighting games, vs the price of entry to other competitive games”. In other words, the execution barrier is not the total number of hours you have to spend in FG training mode. It’s the total number of hours you have to spend in FG training mode minus the number of hours your have to spend in MMO/MOBA/RTS/FPS/CCG training mode.

[Kwyjibo]

Not every game has easy mode so using wont really teach them shit.

What’s to teach? Normal mode would have ST inputs and easy mode would have SF4 inputs. That’s it.

So being a better player means game balance is no longer applicable? If the consequence of being a better player is being able to exploit poor game design, then the game need to be fixed. The only exception to this I can think of is if the game is made better for the exploit. Q3 strafe jumping comes to mind. But in Q3 everyone can strafe jump, since the gameplay is symmetrical.

RC in CvS2.

RC made the game better? I would disagree.

[BB_Hoody]

I believe the hard work should be on match up knowledge, knowing which move to use in what situation, reading patterns and opponent tendencies, tendencies of characters, how to use meter and when, etc. That is all a blast to learn, however again the robotic non thinking part of fighting games (more muscle memory) is what should be minimized as much as possible. Again while keeping the intended diversity of the game.

If a person can’t be bothered to learn execution do you really think the will take the time to learn more advanced stuff like meta game and Reading opponents. I’m not disagreeing with your general sentiment though.

I think if players could naturally learn that stuff as they go through gameplay, instead of having to first grind in training mode so that their execution is on par with everyone else, they would.

[Shin_Akuma]

You know, it fucking amazes me how dedicated some of you are with this whole “Let’s make games easier so that more people can play it” mindset. To me, all this says is “Quantity (of players) > Quality (of game).”

Look at SF2:WW. The controls in that game were much harder, much more strict, and yet, everybody was playing it. Yeah, I know SF2 was the first of its kind but then ask yourselves:
"What has changed since WW and SF4?"
What has made so many people want easier this or easier that?
Why is it that back when SF2 was popular, people didn’t complain about the strict controls. They accepted them for what they were and they adapted to it.
People didn’t go "Man, doing moves is too hard! Make the controls easier in the next game, Capcom."
Nope. they accepted the controls for what they were.

We all know why Capcom decided to go with a lenient input system.
If you have to make a game easier just so more people will buy and play the game, then you have a problem.
It means Capcom is desperate ― not to make a good game, but a game that will sell well.

Capcom never did this with SF2.

Sorry for derailing thread with my rant but I had to get it off my chest. I feel much better now.

RC made the game better? I would disagree.

Care to elaborate?