Except we’re not talking about combos (which are largely emergent and beyond the developers control). We’re talking about basic special move inputs.
What does a hcf add in terms of depth over a qcf motion?
Let me give you a hint - NOTHING.
Now you want to counter that this does not hold true at higher levels of play, which is not only irrelevant, because we are not talking about high levels of play, but also, it is quite obvious that via combos, it does hold true at all levels. Clearly, if you simplify the input for individual moves, the input for the combos that contain these moves is simplified also, and the same interesting tactical considerations disappear.
@Monster637 That wouldn’t really keep casual fans and new comers playing. But it will definitely attract them no doubt about that. Infact that’s MKs niche that has kept the series profitable even during the Dark ages and despite meh gameplay and mechanics. Each game offered more than just a fight. There was always a variety of game modes and extra shit to do. Felt like a more complete package than the average fighter. And now with them uping the Anti with the epic looking story which a lot of people are hyped for. On a mainstream lv I can definitely see MKX being the game that allows MK to finally take the throne from SF.
@keo-bas The reason we’re comparing fighters with MOBA’s FPS and other genres is because they’re competition. Like it has been stated, this isn’t the 90’s where fighters were unrivaled in popularity. Fighters are competing with these genre’s now. E-Sports has nothing to do with it. No genre is gonna survive by being confined to a niche. Fighters need to be developed in a way that allows for them to attract today’s gamers. Smash and MK have the right idea. With Smash’s easy basics and MK packing extra content along with easier execution. As a fan of fighters, you should be concerned about the genre’s longevity less you don’t care to see new ones and more players. As for your other post. What difference does it make if SF is the face of fighters or not? And I agree that fighters need to start being made with consoles and PCs in mind first.
@kwyjibo Free On-line mentorships for a damn game??? stereotypical hood chick voice Ain’t no body got time fo dat! Like are you serious? I agree we need tutorials that explains the basic of the game yes. But mentorships?! Again Ain’t no body got time fo dat! Like hell I’m gonna take time out of my day to mentor someone in a videogame for free. @keo-bas Lastly about what you said about tutorials. No ones asking for all that. You can’t make a tutorial for the meta because it’s always changing. But you can make a tutorial to teach a game’s basics and mechanics which never change. All those mind games and decision making come from experience. And with easy to learn basics and execution, one can start getting that experience much sooner, instead of grinding in training.
I would go on a limb n probably say they are probably making the most sales on fighting games…they move discs. But on the other hand japanese are making fighting games primarly for arcade cabs first as people still waste there time putting money in a machine to play a game instead of just buying the disc n going home in Asia.
On tuts . I always thought they should make dlc with real trails designed by real pro players after the games release…capcom cant even do combo challenges correct or tuts. The fighting genre being lead by a going broke ,has not made a decent game of any genre in years with capcom…dont expect sfv to be more then, who is it dimps being forced to build another street fighter on a budget of crumbs…bare content n hope it brings in the pesos…i think the casuals seen all the 50 irritations and are not gonna have the nostalgia factor on sf5. The casual are more important then ya know… reason lol n dota millions watch that shit n they win millions. And the games are fucking free.
I dont think Asian companys know how to do what riot and valve/steam do n how to do it big…
If they would give there games to capcom usa instead of it being a worthless office mouth piece with no say in shit and capcom japan in charge lol it will stay niche n small forever.
Oh yeah to make this not another thread jacking… games cant have moves so complicated there online infrastructure cant do it consistently or at all. Means ya need to step back n look at what your building that its to complicated for the internet. Inputs have to be so fast not even the interwebs can keepup
Online play n casuals being able to enjoy is the most important thing to a game success these days
I can see why so many people thought this thread was a terrible idea. Never mind some of the…surprising ideas mentioned here, most of you aren’t even talking about the same things. Some of you who claim to agree with each other aren’t even talking about the same things. This thread has fallen apart. With that in mind, I’m just going to start talking about SkullGirls now.
There are somethings about SG I don’t like (unlimited restands, powerful assist lockout, rapid updates, can’t really flood the screen with projectiles like in Mvc2&3, lack of mobility options compared to MvC2), but it has some great stuff in it. I think it has good ideas for teaching new players (the community may be small, but it has a lot of people who are new to fighting games).
-It sticks to SF2 inputs. You don’t need more or less in my opinion.
-GGPO
-It uses high damage to keep it so that there are simpler combos that do good damage. Harder combos are around but you’re not lost without them.
-The tutorials teach about some basic, general fighting game concepts like using and defending against mixups (it can’t cover everything, but letting you know the nature of offense is a huge) as well as some of the actual strategies the characters can use (rather than just combos). I wish it went further, but that probably wasn’t possible.
I think if the game had visuals that more people could love it would be much more popular. I personally like that it looks like old school cartoon network characters fighting but I get why some don’t. I also understand that people aren’t fond of the risqué elements of the characters(I’m not either) and that people don’t care for big heads on little bodies in their games (I don’t either).
Visuals and looking are important in getting people to try any kind of game.
The game is also too combo centric. Even now with more limits on combos, it asks for alot of time spent on learning combos due to how the newer restrictions work.
The story mode is not as big as other games but it does it’s job well. I thought Valentine seemed cool(despite her outfit) before the game came out, then in the story mode she was just awesome so I started playing her. I wasn’t as interested in Eliza when her moveset was revealed but she was so cool in the story that I want to learn how to play her now.
Also the music was cool and it all fits together. In some games all the tracks sound like they come from different games and thats not a good idea in my opinion.
Very interesting game, recommend it.
Edited due typing on phone and things I don’t wish to discuss.
I played skullgirls yesterday. When it released i beat the story and ditched it…as i hate team fight games… had fun yesterday in arcade vvalentine squiglly in eliza…thread jacking im tired later taters.
Long combo games never do well/
Or you know what, forget combos, even with single moves, execution stays relevant at all skill levels. You think top Zangief players never drop a 720? You think they perform one, every single time it is technically possible to do so? You think even the best Kazuya players are able to react to every single +15 frames situation with a clean EWGF? Even at the highest level, situations exist in which the execution requirements provide interesting choices that wouldn’t exist without them.
I think those people are called rappers.
Part of the allure of playing an instrument is knowing that there practically is no ceiling.
Were all missing the real mind bender of why we dont step up the barrier… i want pretzels for projectiles and a star motion for dps. I want flash kicks up down…i want people fighting the controls so much they crack the disc day 1 and never play a fighting game again …or when a new ones released they cring n walk over n buy advanced warfare. Luckly that wont be needed
do you really believe vida games are a art form n your fightsticks an instrument… ?
No, I was referring to musical instruments.
Don’t worry, if there’s anything worth seriously discussing here, I don’t think I would waste my time trying to convince people who already have their minds made up anyway.
They’re called the vast majority of music majors and instrumentalists across the world. I think my music program had like a 95% washout rate.
Playing an instrument really well is hard. There are good rewards for the effort but that doesn’t diminish how many hours you put in at the practice room to get even barely competent. Most people don’t wanna do it even though the idea of creating or performing music is appealing.
I didn’t invent this concept, it exists in other games already. You might not have time for it, but someone else might not mind taking an hour or so a week to help out new players. Besides, some people would do it just for the rewards.
My brother tried being a professional percussionist and eventually came to terms with the fact that some people were just more naturally gifted. He finished his degree though.
My point was more that you don’t have to be the best at something to enjoy it. I’m also an avid guitarist. I’ve been playing for over 20 years and I know that I will never be as good as my heroes. The difference is that I find inspiration in knowing that even my plateau is whatever I make it. It doesn’t bother me that some people are better. Quite the opposite actually because it lets me enjoy on a level far exceeding anything I could ever produce. I still get something out of watching Paco de Lucia or Eric Johnson or Chet Atkins; I have a greater appreciation for what they do as a result.
Sorry if it sounded that way, but I’m not speaking out of ignorance.
You could always be a voice major though.
They do influence every aspect of the game, but they are not an integral part of the mechanics. They are just arbitrary controls. My mind makes decisions, the game interprets them. The motions of my hands are but a conduit to get my decisions across to the machine.
It’s like having a conversation. I come up with ideas, and the person I am talking to interprets them. The language we speak lets this happen, but the specifics of it don’t actually matter. It’s just a conduit. We could be speaking English, Japanese, Filipino or Elvish and it wouldn’t make any difference.
Execution considerations exist because the games were designed to have them, but they are not an integral component of the game. If they were, low execution characters and games couldn’t exist.
The fact that you think this does not speak well for your understanding of high level play. Come on, everything there is? I haven’t dropped a fireball input in years. Have I lost something? Are fighting games now less meaningful to me? What exactly is the valuable thing that new players get out of that time period when they can only dp to the right? How are established players getting a benefit from it?
Separate from the decisions, which is where the real game lies. Long after UMVC3 players have mastered sword loops and Dr. Strange TOD combos, the decisions will still be there. Execution is but a fleeting phase of duck-like awkwardness that comes before the game matures into an elegant swan of mind-games.
I developed a different mentality where I don’t simply accept whatever comes along, and actually work towards a better outcome for myself. It’s funny how differently we were affected by the same influences.
You don’t need to teach players strategy. You just need to give them consistent controls, and they can develop their strategy by playing the actual game. Once a player can do a fireball, he can figure out how and when to use it.
In addition to what ukyo said, if you think a move is powerful enough that you think it needs a hard input, then maybe the move needs to be rebalanced in the first place.
EDIT:
If you’ve read the discussion on this exact same subject that took place a couple of pages ago, you’d know that we’ve already established that 1) balance is, and should always be measured and tuned for the highest levels of play 2) the highest levels of play basically ignores any execution barriers - you assume that that T. Hawk will always get that walk up 720, Makoto will always get her TOD when her back is to the corner, and any touch from Zero will always lead to the lightning loop.
By hiding some things behind an arbitrary execution barrier, all you’re doing is creating a divide between those who can play a character “properly” and those who cannot. While traditional FGC group think has conditioned most of us to think that this is ok, in reality it is not as all it does is prevent the playerbase from growing. And you want to grow the playerbase, not just because e-sports, but because as a community that is focused on competition, more players can only mean good things. Players are what force the game to grow and develop, more players coming is what forces the current players to get better and better.
Now let me give an example of someone actually tuning a move right. Yes, it’s a Skullgirls example, but Mike is on point with these things.
Back in the early builds of the game, Peacock was pretty strong (and she still is) due to her punishing zoning game. However, one of her best tools, bomb cancelling (canceling the recovery of one bomb into a different strength bomb) was pretty hard to do as it needed fast quarter circles done in quick succession, with the pattern changing depending on the opponents movement.
So what does Mike do, he fixes it by both, making it slightly worse, but making it easier to do. Now, Peacock can bomb cancel simply by pressing the punch button of the corresponding bomb (as long as it’s not the same one). The catch is that she can now only have two bombs out at any time. So while she was somewhat nerfed (somewhat, she’s still top tier), her execution is now easier and we have more players able to play her efficiently.
This is also a brilliant move since Peacock is the least combo-centric character in the game and most of her damage comes from filling the screen with projectiles, building meter, and then converting stray hits into super for big damage (she’s basically Cable 2.0, she even has something like the AHVB into AHVB). In other words, people who have trouble with the game’s complicated combo system can pick her up and win games with her.
Because of game devs and the consumer market thinking fighter have to be base of the SF Formula. Then we won’t see some changes because people will always be looking to SF formula in that game, any game that deviates people wont judge the game on its own, let alone play it.
The same thing can be said about smash and other platform fighters, and tekken with other 3d fighters.
Look at the earlier discussion about having button press use for specials. you had so many nay Sayers because they thought it wouldn’t work in SF formula even though countless game have adopted this with no issue. But that because they keep thinking of SF formula.
Look at MK, the series uses block button and instead of Back to block that SF established, the MK series is continuously chastise for this. Even though block button being used and seen as the norm in 3d, platform fighter.