Execution Barrier: Why is this still here?

Current Fighting Games Fighting Game Discussion
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One other issue:

I dont know any genre that can harm your arms as much as fighters in case you dont want to mash.
If you’re using a gamepad, you’ll feel thumb pain and blisters.
If you’re using an arcade stick it may cause tendonitis.

Panic mode is likely more to appear when you’re playing a fighting game.

as opposed in playing a FPS, sports or a MOBA where no DP, 360 or half-circle moves are required
True they require skills but they’re not as straining and panic-inducing as fighters.

Beginners in FG have actually a harder ladder to climb

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Ok @freeAM thinks it’s time for a consensus so let me try and talk some sense in you people.

First off, if you prefer less execution heavy games, great, have a look at the list @keo-bas made for you, it just so happens that all preferences are being provided for. Problem solved.

The mistake that many of you are making when you talk this ‘barrier’ business however, because this is not a matter of preference but a mistake plain and simple, is that you believe that you are ‘not really’ playing a fighting game until you have reached a certain level of knowledge and skill. As though fighting games were like chess where you cannot play until you know exactly how all the pieces move. They are not. They are quite literally as pick-up-and-play as it gets.

Where exactly you place the point at which somebody has achieved this level of ‘access’ is extremely vague, and seems to differ between you, and I am certain none of you would be able to point it out, because doesn’t matter if you think you need to know how to perform some specials, or supers as well, or whatever, because the entire notion is completely nonsensical. It’s like saying beginning players do not exist. You might as well say you need to know every single just frame link that is in the game before you can start playing, it would be equally mistaken.

Execution is just one of the many things that make up the complexity of a fighting game. One of the many things to learn and improve on, one of the many things that separate the good players from the bad. Not some kind of hurdle to overcome, as though at some point it’s no longer an issue, but a gradual process of improvement. The depth of fighting games is such that it can take years to get to the level of the top players, and it is exactly this complexity that makes these games so good. You can play for years and still have plenty of stuff to learn. You can play for years without getting bored, and execution is one of the many ways in which this great depth is achieved. Even after you know how to perform all your character’s moves, there are still plenty of techniques to learn and improve on, and after that advanced techniques, etc. etc.

And you would have this dept reduced? At this point it becomes clear that you are complaining about exactly that which makes these games so good in the first place.

…

This mistake in turn leads to all sort of weird, distorted thinking that is on display in this thread that at bottom all comes down to the same confusion: to confuse beginners with experienced players. You are talking about beginners, and then in the same breath all of a sudden you are talking about all sorts of advanced stuff, as though there wasn’t an enormous gap in skill level between players so astronomically novice as to have trouble with something like 2xQCF, and those to whom something like balance or advanced combos are concerned.

For how could it possibly make any sense whatsoever to, for example, say that just frames are intimidating to new players? Clearly, they should have nothing to do with them until long after they are no longer new players. The insane implication being, that a new player should be able to pick up a game and in a short amount of time be able to compete with the big boys. Just try to imagine a game like that, what a boring, simplistic, casual waste of time that would be…

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Here’s the thing; in a game like smash bros 4, new players who want to play competitively can dive into the meat of the game a lot sooner than with a game like SF4. The execution barrier is near non-existent, so new players spend far less time in training mode and more time in matches against real people.

Look at it this way: I have like 300 hours logged into SF4, and I would consider myself average to below-average. Meanwhile, I have only about 100 hours in smash bros 3ds, and I would consider myself average to above average.

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But by the same argument, you can lump in other games like Street Fighter IV and even Marvel vs. Capcom 2 with those other games.

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which mean we have bigger issue to address. What exact game are we looking for. because this whole “smash” is accessible doesn’t cut it. lets start dissecting what is accessible.

if we go by BB Hood description then guess what… Phantom breaker fits the bill about 90% with the exception that it function like typical fighter with health point system and no ring outs.

Edit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuqEt8jZ7wE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi1EBZOabBE

I tried to have my video focus on universal basic controls.

Mikado video does better job of highlighting few mechanics but some of the information is inaccurate or been adjusted by patches. (my video is in poor quality, grammatical errors, and doesn’t covers Counter burst/offset/ tension but then again I didn’t consider this basic stuff.)

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The floor and the ceiling. I think it is very simple, to make fighting games accessible how the high the ceiling is doesn’t matter. At the very highest level of play it may be the most complex executionally difficult game to ever exist. What is important is the floor being low enough that anyone can enter and feel like they are not an inept failure.

I’m not talking about beginners being able to beat more experienced players, I’m talking about what others have said, the basics (specials, short bnb combos) should be easy to do. This makes the player feel like they actually can do something, maybe even be a contender some day. Otherwise like hyper inferno said, most will just quit. In the end it is a game, and a person is using their valuable and likely very limited leisure time to play it. If they aren’t having fun, they’ll do something else.

Since smash was brought up, let me say…I can play that with any person I know and they’ll have fun. Girls, guys, little kids. They won’t feel overwhelmed, they feel they can do stuff. Yeah I’m sure the advanced pro stuff is very complex, but you can jump right in and have a blast. Feel like you are actually doing something, rather than close to nothing.

This is why so many fighting games fail other than huge long lived names like Street fighter, Mortal Kombat, Tekken, etc. Cause the barrier is much too high for most casual players. They don’t want to be masochists that can’t even do basics as they get pummelled again and again. It isn’t about losing, it is feeling helpless, and then they feel that they have to devote tons of time just to be able to do anything.

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@JaceBuilder and @Keo-bas You guys don’t seem to get it, but @blufang summed it up perfectly. No one’s saying to remove the depth from fighters. We’re saying to like blufang said "make the ceiling as high as you want, but make the floor as low as possible. And Smash does this. Yes there are advanced stuff like in any fighter, but with the basics being so easy to master, you can learn that stuff as you go. And as others have brought up. Most casual gamers don’t have the time to spend in training mode mastering shit. And if they try to wing it, they feel helpless in a actual match and get frustrated. Hell with my new career as a aircraft mechanic about to kick off, I’m kinda in that boat now. Sure I can still play the classics, but I’m not gonna have time to devote to learning new fighters like I use to. New fighters MUST lower the floor for basics and execution for today’s market or I don’t see this genre lasting to much longer while others excell and look more lucrative to upcoming devs.

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@Keo-bas By fighting game standards Phantom Breaker does seem pretty accessible and easy to get into. But by general gaming standards when compared to the accessibility of games from other genre’s. Not so much. The fighter that comes the closest when compared with games from other genre’s is Smash. Also as shallow as this is, but it’s a factor. The aesthetics can make or break the game for the casual gamer. The casual gamer would look at Phantom Breaker and be like “The fuck is this anime shit? Put on some MK or Smash.” But that’s a whole nother topic for discussion.

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for me whether something is accessible is about how soon you can play the “real game” or how soon until you’re good enough that you can make interesting decisions that affect the outcome of the game in a meaningful way.

Starcraft 2 is a great example of a game where execution is king. you can make better decisions but that doesn’t matter if your opponent’s macro is significantly better than yours. and for most players, that level of competent macro is far more work than they’re interested in putting in. these new guys don’t ever get to that level of actually getting to play the game. they lose because the mechanical wall is too steep and they just stop playing. I suspect many people have had the experience where they watch a Funday Monday on Day9’s channel, say “damn that’s so cool, I wanna try that.” then they go to a ranked match and give it a try, except their macro is not great, the opponent has a shitload of Marines in their base within 7 minutes, and they quit then never play again.

I’ve always thought Warcraft 3 was a much more accessible game than either Starcraft while still having a high skill ceiling. execution is still definitely a large factor in determining the outcome (same as any game) but it isn’t a sheer wall you need to overcome before you ever start playing.

ST is often a game brought up as “easy to learn, hard to master.” I think most popular competitive games have that in common. the process of learning the game is generally not frontloaded, but there’s still a large separation in skill levels so there’s room to grow.

this is why I don’t like when 3s players crow about how their game is so technical and difficult and scrubs just can’t comprehend it. not only is it not true, it turns people off and gives them the wrong idea about why they’re losing. 3s is quite accessible I think. only a couple characters require you to be able to hit confirm, only a couple characters require difficult to execute combos. parrying is not difficult. when you lose in 3s it’s generally because the other guy made better decisions or has a better understanding of the game. but the skill ceiling is still very high - no matter how good you get, there is always Kuroda.

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It’s also worth noting that for smash bros, one of it’s greatest strengths (IMO) is the simple fact that there is nothing an advanced player can do that a new player cant. Think about that; there are no FADCs, no option selects, no plinking of tight frame combos, no little tricks that give the better, more knowledgeable player more of an advantage than they already have. The only reason you will lose in a 1v1 smash bros match is because you got outplayed. Now think about how appealing that can be to people who arent FG aficionados. “I can do everything the pros can do. All of the moves and the most advanced tactics are within my reach from the get-go. All that I need to worry about is getting better at the game and play against other people.” Because new players spend less time trying to learn some elaborate combo or advanced trick, they can start learning the real metagame much sooner; making reads, adapting to habits, playing mindgames, etc.

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Yes, fighting games can be social, but not in the same way. You don’t join a clan and play together on the same team in fighters. People like that aspect of team games. Fighters often have local scenes, which may sound good except for when you realize you’re asking people to drive to it, often paying a cover charge, and meet with strangers :confused:

And people usually don’t want to spectate games, unless they are hardcore into the game or into the esports aspect. I don’t really see fighters as being that fun to spectate myself, but the only games I actually enjoy spectating are Quake Live duels and MOBAs, so that’s just personal preference.

You’ve never heard of that? :o

It’s basically the amount of “skill” required to play the game at a high level. The difference between new players who know very little about the game’s mechanics and meta vs the veterans who know the game inside-out is pretty big in pretty much all fighters. I’m not talking about pro-level players, I’m talking about the hardcore players who have thousands of hours invested.

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@kwyjibo Um Street Fighter actually has a team battle mode as well as other fighters like Smash and MK. But fighters are mainly about that 1v1. You’re either down with that or not. No way around it. I don’t see how clan tags or playing on-line in a group is any more social when fighters do the same with open on-line lobbies. Also so what if you meet only strangers at an event? Fucking introduce yo self and make friends. The main difference between socializing in games like Starcraft or COD and fighting games is that the former is primarily socializing on-line while the later is primarily socializing in person. Guess people are too chicken shit to meet people in person.

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While I do agree that a DP motion is harder to do at first than a quarter circle, It’s not by so much someone won’t be able to do it on their first day with the game. They may not be able to execute one with perfect reversal timing, but that doesn’t matter when you’re just starting out. If you’re just sitting on a couch with a friend, it takes a few minutes to learn (not master, learn) the basic motions in SF even if it’s a charge character. You won’t be doing them perfectly and you will drop them if the match gets close/intense, but it won’t matter because it’s not EVO top 8 and you will likely have enjoyed yourself.

Seriously just picking up a fighting game playing and having fun with it isn’t the hard part. The hard part really only comes when start to care about winning (and you need to know about actual strategies) or when you go online and play against someone who’s better than you.

Even in smash 4 this isn’t true.

Also smash does stick to simple inputs but the trade off is that strategies that exist in other fighting games don’t exist in smash (and vice-versa). It works differently because it is a different kind of game.

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Wow, I’m sensing some hostilility. Did I somehow offend you or something?

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Please explain.

…like?

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Perfect Pivot is a good example. Not every character needs it but definitely takes some real practice use in a match.

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But that’s just it; it’s not essential. You dont need it to play the game at any level. I dont think I’ve seen a single video where they used perfect pivot besides a tutorial.

In SF4, you NEED to learn how to plink, option select, and FADC. PP would obviously require practitice if you wanted to use it, but likely nowhere near as much as something like DP-FADC-Ultra.

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It’s not common in videos of the game yet because of how difficult it is. Some characters may not really make use it but the same is actually true for wave dashing in melee and plinking and FADC in SF4.

Anyway I think limiting specials to basic sf2 motions (back & down charge, qcf, dp, 360 etc) is cool. But what would really make these games easier to learn is tutorial that teach you about some common strategies and how to combat them. For example, how to get in safely against Ryu. That could go a long way toward help people get to intermediate level play.

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Tutorials are good for sure, and something that seems to be an afterthought in many fighters. You’d think these developers would recognize that their product is very inaccessible and make a point to add one. It seems like it would be in their best interest to do that. Hell, every shooter seems to have a tutorial at this point, and it’s hard to imagine that there is anyone left out there who doesn’t already understand how to play a shooter.

Another thing I’d like to see is mentorships. People are given the choice to be a mentor after so many matches, and if they choose to be one they will be alerted when someone requests mentorship. Their mentoring would be rated by that person, and they would be given a special level or something(badge, costume, whatever) as a reward once the acquire enough positive ratings. I think this would actually make the new player experience a more positive one, instead of them getting molly-whopped until they either quit or go to the forums to get told to git gud.

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The best tutorials are good enough as is. What tutorials (and fighting games) need to do is come with a label that says:

“WARNING: Fighting games require hours of dedication and practice to become decent at, expect to lose a lot in the beginning. Be diligent and the results will eventually come.”

Not enough people understand this; then once they find out this harsh reality for themselves, motivation naturally drops. Barring a few design choices in particular games, fighting games are about as accessible as they’ll get, execution can be completely sacrificed simply because people don’t care to try.