Execution Barrier: Why is this still here?

While having other modes helps because more content is just good usually. But the main problem is does these mode even teach people how to play or do they just let them change the rules to fit their needs? If its the later than I’m not fan of it.

Gundam vs and Budokai player beg to differ. But regardless of that we shouldn’t be pampering to people who can’t handle their ego problems. My ego get in the way plenty of times but I learn to deal with it. If person doesn’t have drive then they shouldn’t be playing competitive game in the first place.

  1. I’m going to say the perfect game, at least in terms of inputs for specials/supers, in regards to execution barrier has already been made. It is called skullgirls.

For many of its players it was their first fighter. All the specials, supers can be done no problem…you will NEVER miss them. However they are precise enough that you never get the wrong move. Now it is a very combo focused game, so people train doing incredibly long combos and where they can plug in tricky resets. Combos are easy to string together though, it is just high level players constantly push the lenient combo system. That is fine, high level dedicated players will push the envelope of any fighter, however no need to put artificial barriers which most fighters seem to do.

  1. The comparison to basketball, or any other sport for that matter, is flawed. With b ball there is no choice, no other option. You have to learn how to dribble, shooting form, footwork, lateral movement, etc. Fighting games are like any other video game, you sit down or stand (if at arcade), and press buttons. How difficult it is to use the buttons and stick/pad is up to the developer. They can make it super easy, or super hard. There is a choice.

There’s a part you’re not acknowledging @bluefang and that’s the difficulty curve of the gameplay. As I said before you can make a fighter as accessible as you want I.E skullgirls. But the gameplay that results from the tactics and strategies of competitive/tournament players trickling down to everyone else thus shaping the meta discourages casuals who don’t want to take the game that seriously but feel like they have to because everyone else has. Where as in Smash competitive players can play their way and casual players can play their way. There are people who are interested in fighters. They just get turned off by the competitiveness. Give them a mode where they can fight but not have to try too hard and just have fun, and they’ll try it. Because face it. The majority are never going to take fighters that seriously, no matter how easy the execution because they just don’t want to compete with good players or as they like to say “Try hards”

basketball and sports are even worse because they additionally require stamina and exercise. A lot of the guys we used to play together when we were teens havent touched a basketball or did exercise for over 20 years. No matter how good they were, they’ll likely get injured or tired, were they to try now. At least I do daily exercise so I can last longer without panting from the first minute.

the important thing is to play whether you win or lose. My friend who doesnt do sports, participated in a soccer tournament with prize money. Because there was money involved, some good teams entered as well and they were in amateur leagues, just below the more professional leagues. He played against such a team and they were demolished. He felt embarrassed and the opponent told him not to mind, whats important was that they played together. Of course he had a feud with another guy of that team who fouled him hard while on defense. My friend retorted in the next scene and they were separated before a brawl. Afterwards he protested to him that he wasnt a pro and next day he had to go injured to work.

That ranking system scares a lot of players away, due to how embarrassing low points are. But I really dont mind. If I have less time to play, I prefer to play ranked, since in endless I need either to wait or worry for getting kicked due to the low PP/BP, connection or nationality. I intentionally left it at 35 PP, my current age!

Forgive me if I disagree. Skull girls make combos a chore with its poor ips and concept. Not to mention its very match up heavy when teams and assist are consider. Its game where the sub system over shadows standard fg knowledge. Mind you this doesn’t make the game bad but far from perfect. Phantom breaker does better job. Skull girls was made for people experienced with the genre or love memorization.

  1. With skullgirls I was referring specifically to the special/super move inputs and how that is handled.

  2. Sure there are people who want to just play for fun, who aren’t super serious. BBhood, there isn’t a n easy way around this. I think an endless lobby like skullgirls where you can separate beginners/intermediate/advanced and there is no waiting unless there is an odd number of people (in which case one person would have to wait a match) is a good solution. No pts, no pressure, just have fun.

  3. I think there are some people who wont be serious with fighting games no matter what, however there are others who may be put off with having to sit in a training room working on some combo full of 1f links or pretzal motions, who would be serious otherwise. Fighting games should be as accessible as possible while keeping diversity/precision. People don’t have limitless time, careers/spouses/kids/other hobbies, and high execution barriers just for execution sake is a huge turn off.

Except everything hard in Skullgirls is stuff that’s emergent for the most part (except the IPS, but even the effect of that has been minimized in SDE and Encore thanks to the addition of undizzy burst which has greatly shortened combos). All that is stuff that’s been developed by the players.

The base level execution barrier in the game however is quite low. Not only does the game use simple inputs (the only motions it uses are qcf, qcb, dp, sonic boom and flash kick) but the input buffer is quire generous since Mike believes in the formula of 4 frames per direction, plus an additional 4 for traverse (i.e. when there’s a direction between two inputs, such as in a DP motion) and 2 for the attack input .

@blufang Oh I agree with your third point completely. As I stated before. Basics should be easy, advanced stuff should be more difficult. And stuff like Vampire Savior’s push block method and pretzel motions in KOFXIII are just unnecessary.

It’s like what I always tell my friends: I’d rather lose through a lack of skill than a lack of control.

And SF, especially on pad, can be very hard to control.

There definitely has to be some sort of execution barrier in fighting games, but some like SF not only ask a lot of the player, but ask that they be able to pull off tricky combinations of buttons in the heat of the moment. In the case of SF, I dont believe it’s execution that keeps new players from diving in, but rather, some of the technical tools that high level play demands you learn.

-option selects
(im too lazy to commit to a move, so im just gonna let the game decide my best course of action, hurr hurr)
-1 frame links
(fake difficulty, not even that important to a lot of characters, and dropping them means eating a mashed reversal DP anyway)
-plinking
(if you have to resort to tricking the game to do a combo consistently, something is wrong)
-FADC
(blocked wakeup DP: oops, lemme make myself safe so i dont get punished like i should have for making a dumb decision
didnt block wakeup DP: yay, free ultra!)

Remove these from the game and I can almost guarantee you that more players would find the game less daunting and be willing to really sink their teeth into it. These kinds of things only give already good players just that much more advantage over lesser skilled players. Is it not bad enough that the better player will almost always win because they can outplay the lesser player? Now we have to shove all these extras down their throats, telling them “if you dont learn these, you will never be good at this game.” That turns a lot of people away.

On the other hand, you have a lot of new players who see these high level tricks and think “if I can do that, I can be good at SF!” Instead of learning the most important aspects of the game (controlling space, when to block, jumping too much is unsafe, learning matchups, playing mind games, etc), they’re too fixated on trying to learn all these fancy “pro” tricks.

Then you’ve got the “flowchart newbies” who spend so much time practicing one or two tight combos, they neglect learning anything else, and become predictable as a result. Just today, I played a seth that could do lp-lp-lp-lp-mp into kicks very consistently…and nothing else. Dude even taunted me at one point, thinking being able to do that one combo made him good.

Spoiler

It didnt. My juri is now a c rank thanks to mr. flowchart seth.

To the op: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-AA8DjQzcw

Had to get that out of the way and I’ve skimmed the 4 pages of this thread. OP has no idea what he’s talking because inputs for fighting games are getting even easier. Look at Killer Instinct; there’s only quarter circle, srk, and back and towards or up and towards motions. There’s no charge moves. You don’t even need to do two QCF motions for a super because there’s no supers only EX moves. Hit two buttons and you pop your instinct. Done. That’s simple.

After that you just have barrier for execution when it comes to combos. And there has to be a barrier, it must exist, no one wants to see a little kid doing a one button infinite.

I had a thought earlier:

**How long do we really want to spend with each fighting game we like? **

I think thats a cool thought that we should all keep in mind when playing fighting games.

But Ill also say I downloaded UNIEL today, and damn, this game is easy to do combos in. The special moves are cool too, theres a lotish like KOF but I like that and the game offers a lot of instant reward for trying out random buttons in place of each other with combos. Id recommend it to someone whos afraid of Guilty Gear or BlazBlue.

Agree.
Frenchbread game has always been known for ease of execution. Melty blood was at point called “easier version” of Guilty gear which is kind of on point. Though Melty has involve beyond that now. Their other game Denki flighting climax is also good game too.

That the point some of us been trying to point out. Their are fighting game that teaches people fighting with faster results. They just have to look for them.

Yo guys check out this thread to see what I’m talking about when I say the learning curve of the gameplay is what pisses noobs/casuals off the most. To get these types into fighters. A casual friendly mode is necessary. That or a tutorial mode that is also updated with any new tech that is discovered. Let be honest...The guilty gear community is trash

I think, though, that some of it stems from the mentality of the casual player. How does a spectator who is neutral to the casual player versus the experienced player differentiate between “good match, but one-sided” and “WTF is this spamming tryhard”? I’m not trying to turn the issue around on casual players, but that thread reminded of something I’ve forgotten a long time ago. Sometimes casual players don’t know what they want.

What, in a casual players’ mind, is the fine line between “ggs” and “piss off weeb”? It can’t just be the health differential. Is it the feeling of having had more control in one match than the other, despite both outcomes being the same? The reason I’m asking is because the idea of a “spammer” has been the reason so many people have been deep sixed from the very moment they popped a quarter into SF2 cabs at the arcades. I don’t know if there’s any mode or tutorial that can help players like that. They need someone to sit them down and educate them. I would also recommend pointing them to a resource, but they won’t read (believe me, I wouldn’t either) if they don’t have a real vested interest in dedicating time and energy to the game.

For the person in that thread, specifically, I would point out that Guilty Gear online has casual match lobbies, but 1] the online menu system says almost nothing to give this away and 2] there is no way to control who goes into what lobbies (indeed, some players will purposefully enter just to grief newer players and TO THIS DAY I have never understood this mentality in any game). For example, I know a specific type of newer player likes to feel themselves when they’re getting wins online and if I want to try out a new character that I don’t know and am not familiar with, if nobody I know personally is online, I will start up or join a casual match lobby so the pressure is off and so I can focus instead of calming myself down when people are taunting/fishing for IK/other delicious online tactics. I can understand if this still is a bit more pressure than the regular casual player would like, though.

I think the discussion boils down to trying to get the casual player to figure out what they want; I feel like some (maybe many or even most) would prefer if fighters were like card games. They just want to play. I certainly don’t have the mind power to apply the “casual question” to the fighting genre, though. I feel like just the aspect of controlling a fighting game character is enough to either disinterest players or frustrate them entirely. Maybe there isn’t a solution. Maybe there is one and none of us would like it, haha.

@BB_Hoody All this show is that the OP has now idea what FG about.

@Yannick I agree that the issue is that people dont know what they want.

I had freind who recentlty ask me about XRD, I was hesitate to answer the question because i was aware how this friends thinks and operates. He’s person who like being told what to do and like, he appraoches most stuff at face value. I first ask him what got him interested in XRD. To sum it up it simply look cool because it was anime and he been hearing “great stufff” abbout it. Personally this wasn’t good reason for him to get the game. I wind up suggesting other action anime game that could give similar feelings to fighters.But against my better judgement he did get it and wind up hating the game and the experience.He felt the game was complicated (which I warned him on) and he didn’t like losing.

Right now one of my friends is trying to get him back into it but im advising him that he doesn’t These game are for people who want drive, if you don’t have it than you shouldn’t be playing any competitive game imo. Their are other genre’s that can give the “feel good” feeling. Fighter does it too but on very higher scale with just as much “fee bad”.

@keo-bas So in laymen terms, fighters are for more hardcore/competitive gamers. We’re all aware of this. The goal is to reduce the entry barrier to get more people into them. And I think the issue lies not with execution but with the difficulty curve of the gameplay. Some people just don’t want to learn the game and “git gud” They just want to learn enough to know what they’re doing and have fun with that. I think the solution is a well thought out tutorial that teaches the basics, and a more casual friendly mode for them to play in. And then maybe they’d wanna make the jump to the competitive mode.

  1. Ah griefing…had to look up that term but apparently that is how some get their sadistic kicks (have to assume they don’t have much going for them in life). I think a way to help prevent this is if you have a certain amount of ranked points you can’t enter the beginner lobby. Now of course some people may not play ranked at all but may be experienced players. Another idea is to disable taunting in online non ranked matches (unless taunt actually serves a gameplay function like personal actions in 3s).

  2. It isn’t just health differential, I think it really is feeling one has more control in the match. It gives one more hope that in the future the result can be different.

basically the older arcade fighters that were produced before the online competitive scene exploded, can be still enjoyed. Probably because they werent “tainted” to such a degree. Also because the few players left are very experienced and open to newcomers.

I devoted far less time learning or re-learning those games than SF4, yet I fare there much better. Eg in Vampire Savior Dyne was a valuable mentor for a while. Unfortunately I wasnt able to devote that much time to the game to utilize his advice and approach, but still it was greatly helpful. In SF4 with the current state the online is, I’d never hope to meet that kind of player

It’s interesting to think about it as learning curves as @BB_Hoody said. For example, special moves done with buttom mash like honda slap/chun lightning legs and charge moves were created to be easier to execute. And they really are easier for a complete begginer to use for the first time than a quarter circle foward. But this don’t hold truth later on…to use lightning legs or charges at will requires a lot of tricks with the buffer and preparing things ahead of time.

Putting this case of charge/mash special moves in a learning curve, in the beggining a small increment in experience would reflect a big increment in learning. But as the curve advances, it becomes the reverse…you start to have to spend way more time than usual to notice any increment in learning. A similar case is holded buttom special moves. At first it seems like the easier thing ever…then you discover that you will have to fight for half a round withouth using a normal, while dedicating one finger just to hold that buttom.

About a separeted mode for casuals and begginers…if it’s to create something “for fun”, and some people see the competition itself as distressful, might as well ad something different from 1x1 between human players. For example:

Spoiler

-a xrd/kofxiii like history mode. Think of it as a visual novel.
-a skullgirls esque tutorial to teach system and gameflow.
-a kof13 esque trials to teach combos. Think of it as a rhytm game.
-a ggxxac esque challenges to fight against a buffed cpu or with lowered stats.
-a alpha3 esque world tour were you level up your character and open new abilities. RPG-like, people loved it.
-a alpha3 esque “dramatic battle” for a cooperative mode were 2 players fight together against 2 cpu controlled characters. Closer to a 2d plataformer, people loved it too.

But any of those items are tons of extra-work that require more time and budget…

As people mentinoned uniel and melty too…

[details=Spoiler]
“Everything chains into anything”, the first impression about execution is that it’s very easy. It gives a good impression for begginers for pressing buttons and stuff happening. Even in the choice of special moves, there’s a lot of characters with double-down special moves…that for sure are the easier ones i have seeing around, and can only remember SNK using this command (Kim Kampwhan).

Another interesting thing is that the environment is very controled. There’s a big number of failsafes mechanics there to control the momentum, that shared by melty blood, unib and dfc.
-you can cancel dash foward animation into blocking at any point
-there’s a crossup protection that doubles as a aegis-esque unblockable protection
-fuzzy guard protection
-grab protection in the wakeup
-chip damange exists, but you can’t be killed by chip damange. The last attack have to connect to kill.

Uniel added even more stuff on top.
-they maked air normals overhead just in the falling part of the jump, effectively taking instant overheads out of the game
-added sf4 esque no-juggle state when recovering in the air, taking a big portion of resets out
-they added a hitstun deterioration system. Depending on the first hit of the combo beeing a normal hit, a counter hit or a high counter hit (when you cut the opponent special move), the hitstun of each attack of a combo is scalled differently. For normal hits, this system makes the combos much much shorter, while still giving space for freedom if someone get a counter hit.
-to compensate for the shorter combos created by this hitstun deterioration, the total HP of the characters was reduced.

But they have some problems too

-the flexible chain options creates very strong blockstrings, full of staggers. To catch the reset point of the pressures can be very difficult…the impression begginers will have is that the pressure is infinite and they had to try a riskier thing than they really should.

in melty
-the game have gravity system ( the speed of falling increase as you juggle them to take out infinites) and chars have different body sizes. But on top of it different chars falls at different speeds. Almost any juggle will need to have the timing changed when using against different chars, and almost all advanced combos are very char specific. It can become just too much things to memorizate.

-Full moon characters have more restricted chain sequences, and naturally inclined toward links. For some, it can become very tight links (Fkouma, Fwarachia) or even 1f links (Farc). I’m actually ok with this, it’s good to have chars with different combo styles, but it can be a let down.[/details]

@caiooa See this guy gets what I’m saying. And thanks for explaining my point but in much more detail. It’s one thing to have moves that are easy to perform. But being able to effectively utilise them in a match is another. That’s where the learning curve of the gameplay comes in. And people are either gonna learn it or quit. Now I agree a tutorial like Skullgirls’s helps with the learning curve by teaching you gameplay basics like Mix ups, anti airs etc. But still some people just have no intrest in being competitive and just want a more casual experience. Modes like you mentioned in SFA3 which offer something other than 1v1 fights are perfect. And yeah they require more effort to be included, but it’s worth it. SFA3 sold 1.8 mill I believe.