Evolution X (2008): Decade of Domination!

I’m thinking of going next year, so it’d be great to see SC make a return to evo. But that’s just my personal opinion, I’d like to see Cvs2 return even though I don’t play it. But…I’d find it insane if it was replaced by Puzzle fighter. That’s just…no.

SSBB…well, this game looks to be shaping up to be even LESS tourney friendly than melee. Smash has always been more of a part game and this one looks even more like one than the other two. So, items off, stock and only certain stages? Ehh, I dsipise smash tourney play, but it does have the biggest community of any FG in the U.S. right now. It’s a no brainer.

T6 is another obvious choice if everything turns out well.

This is of course, assuming Brawl, T6 and Sc4 don’t turn out to suck.

It’s s a shame more people don’t play VF5. I think it’d get the most postitive results of any game if more people did. Perhaps the online scene will change that in the near future like it did with DOA.

After speaking with Yosuke, Tokido, Ino, and Itazan, it would seem that they really do not like VF5. They much perfer 4, as it was apparently a lot better balanced.

Eh, balance is overrated. :stuck_out_tongue: It didn’t stop marvel, did it? That and VF5 DOES have more characters, so the more characters you add the harder the game is to balanace. Trying to keep a series balanced perfectly while adding new characters is fighting a losing battle. I admire making a game as balaced as possible, but still.

True, but Shun Di is rediculous in 5. I don’t know the game well, but I’m telling you that he is nuts.

He is already a good character without the drinks. When he drinks, he gets stronger, faster, and more attacks.

They play 3 of 5 rounds instead of 2 of 3, giving him more time to stock drinks. They also allow Shun to drink 4 times after getting a KO and keep the drink stocks. Wtf?!

In 4, he was a weak character that caught up after drinking. Now, he is just too awesome. :looney:

I’m told that in 4, you’d see nearly every character in tournaments. In 5, you just see Shun, Kage, Pai most of the time. We only got to see Jacky cause Yosuke is ga-ga over him, and Aoi (worst character in VF5, im told) due to whomever being just that good.

Edit - and the japanese really dislike marvel

edit - im not saying we should do what they do and stop playing marvel, btw.

I don’t like the way Evo is evolving. Next year we’ll have Mario’s big ass face in the back of the Evo shirts. If this is a popularity contest just add Halo 3 to the line up.

Judging by what some of you said, main problem seems like time. From the surface it looks like the main problem is the double elimination format. I assume this is the format used throughout the entirety of each game. My idea involces scrapping double elim and replacing it with round robin. Now i know some of you will be screaming and already typing away a flame, but hear me out.

Heres the plan

  1. Eliminate last minute registration, that way groups can be drawn up before the event with players seeded by region.

  2. When players arrive at evo to confirm registration, players can be given a card detailing all their info. What games they are entered, what TV setup (labelled A-Z) they need to be at and what time.

  3. Groups will have say 8 players each. All the games are best of 1 (not 3), but everyone gets 7 games. Everyone gets to play everyone in their group. This is good for weaker players, as they will probably have at least a couple of very good players in their group, possibly top japanese players and they will get to play them.

The group should be run like this.
Example.

If group is scheduled to start at 3pm, then it will start then. All players should know by their card where and when they should be. If some players are missing, a PA can be done, if still not in 5-10 minutes the group starts without them. Missing players can show up midway in their group, but would have obviously forfeited games they were absent for.

The group should be run by winner stays on. Player 1 plays Players 2, if player 2 wins he stays on and plays player 3, and so in that fashion untill all the games have been played. It really speed round robin up this way. Granted in group of 8 players there are 27 games to be played, but thats all best of 1. If you want to lower things alot, groups of 6 brings the game total to 15, so about half the time. 2 groups of 6 takes only a little longer than 1 group of 8. But everyone gets 5 matches compared to 7.

Alternatively, groups of 4 could be used, but matches are best of 2 out of 3 instead. 8 groups of 4 (total of 32), is just a few total games over that of a 32 man double elimination pool, 4 i think. Plus each group gets run real quick, total of 6 games, and each player gets a minimum of 3 games rather than 2 in double elmination. Plus using the same conditions as the above means groups will be run on time and efficiently.

4.After groups, you could go straight into single elimination (games best of 3). Since all the players would have gotten plenty of games in the groups already, this shouldn’t upset too many people. I know people whine about single elim, but at the end of the day, if your there to win your gonna have to play and beat the best anyway, so it doesn’t really matter. But i hear you say it does matter cause of prize money.

Well taking that into consideration, you could still do double elimination, but have the games of best of 1 instead. I know people really hate best of 1, but your given best of 3 rounds anyway by default by most fighting games. Your extra chance is there in the game. If your too slow to adapt to your opponent in the 1st game then your probably not gonna be able to do it in the 2nd game either. I’ve been too to many tournaments now where nearly all the best of 3 matches are 2-0. Games only begin to get alot tighter when you reach the final stages, where the players are more evenly matched. So maybe single elimination up untill the final 16/8 where it changes to best of 3 would be a good idea.

  1. The schedule might need changing slighty. Currently you have all the pools and semi’s on the first 2 days and the finals on the final day. What might be good for alot of players is if games where arranged by catergory per day. Capcom day, 3d day, others day, and have all the pools, semis and finals for those games on the same day. This way players don’t have to spend the entire weekend at the event if they just entering a couple of games.

Example schedule

**Day 1 (friday) - GGAC, T5dr, VF5, **

10am -GGAC pools and semis -Yes 3 hours
1pm - VF5 pools and semis
4pm - T5dr pools and semis

7pm GGAC finals
8:30pm VF5 finals
10pm T5dr finals

Everything should be finished before 12pm.

Day2 (Saturday) - CVs2, ST, 3s

10am - CVS2

1pm - ST

4pm - 3s

7pm - CVS2 finals
8:30pm - ST finals
10pm - MVC2 finals

Finished, latest 12pm

**Day 3 (Sunday) - 3s, Smash - biggest games? **

10am - Smash pools and semis
2pm - pools and semis MVC2

6pm Smash finals
8pm 3s finals

Finished by 10pm latest - earlier finish on Sunday and end of tournament, finishing on the biggest games(?). Good nights sleep for monday morning, or more partying, either way, good.

I know theres alot of flaws with that schedule concerning which games on which day, but it could mean more people might want to come. Alot of people only play 1 or 2 games. So if someone is just entering T5dr and VF5 they only need to be at evo on 1 day meaning they don’t have to spend as much money on accomodation or could choose to see other parts of vegas on other tournament days. Some players like watching all or most of finals too. This schedule is good for them too, as they only need to spend their evenings watching the finals they are interested in, having the rest of the day to themselves.

  1. Finally i don’t think anyone wants to see a decrease in the number of games, if anything I hope over the coming years more games will be added, making evo even bigger and more popular than ever.

Thats my 2 cents, sorry for the long winded post. Its 4.50am here right now, so i may have babbled unnecessarily.

Thanks
r3ko

What exactly are you complaining about? I don’t…really get it.

That’s an interesting first sentence.

Anyway, what is your problem with it? There’s no actual information in your post, so it’s hard to give additional feedback or suggestions or even answers.

It’s not about popularity. Remember, we’ve held VF 3 times now. Definitely not the epitome of popular. That being said, both MVC2 and 3S are highly popular, and we host them as well. I’m not sure what your statement was trying to say.

Perhaps you could add a bit more.

I believe I may be able to give a couple of helpful suggestions. As I said before, we in South America have the desire to someday have Evo qualifiers as well. I also said that we have some experience running gaming tourneys and other gaming events. Since we started doing it from different paths, we also look at it a little bit differently and maybe a couple of our ideas can have some value to you as well. I know your ideas are valuable to us.

Warning: THIS IS A LONG POST POST AIMED AT TOURNAMENT ORGANIZERS

1 - About wasted time in pools:

1.1 Example:

We recently ran a 320 people Winning Eleven tournament in Brazil. Mind you that the first round was composed by groups of four people, round robin, and 2 players from each group qualified for the second round. Mind you that each game takes a little more than 20 minutes, and more than 40 at the eliminatory rounds, because people play home and away games to define the qualified winner.

So, as you can see, it is a tourney that demands good logistics.

Yet, we could not only have everyone ready to play at the exact time they were supposed to play, but we were also able to inform them at which exact time of the day they would be playing the game. I will try to explain how we do it. Please excuse my poor English.

1.2 Solutions applied:

We know that each game takes about 20 minutes to be played. We throw in a big margin of safety of 50%. So we have some time to spare for the time in which people will be changing controllers or seating on getting in and out of their seats, and a little more so we can control unpredictable variables that may or may not happen. Having several different plans of contingency is something really important for events, but I do not want to digress.

So our spots for each game that will be played are half an hour which. Maybe for MvC2, for instance, they would be 4 or 5 minutes each.

Each group, that resembles your pools, will have 4 players, all playing each other, for a total of 6 full games, or 3 hours in a single TV. Since we will run the tournament for 15 hours a day , we know that each TV will be able to manage 5 pools during the day. The 8 am pool, the 11 am pool, the 2 pm pool, the 5 pm pool, and the 8 pm pool. The pools will be over by 11 pm, still with a little margin of safety for the unpredictable.

Since we have 16 Tvs running, we know that pools 1 through 16 will all start at 8 am. We also know that pools 17 to 32 will all start at 11 pm. And the same happens for all other pools.

Now, at the moment of registration, the players are randomly assigned to a pool number. With pre-registration, we can even guarantee to assign them away from people of the same city or friends. They are then informed that they have to present themselves to the staff member who controls the flux of people to the pool seating area 15 minutes before the scheduled time for their pools. The pools area of sitting is exclusive for whoever will be playing in those pools, so what happens is that they present themselves 15 minutes ahead of the time in which they will be playing for sure.

1.3 Disqualifications:

Now comes the most important thing. The players are scheduled to appear 15 minutes in advance of the real time they will be playing. So, if player A pool starts at 8 am, he will be scheduled to appear at 7:45 am. If he does not appear until 8 pm sharp, he is already eliminated. There is no flexibility, and the only exceptions will be made by advanced communication to the man who controls the flux into the pools sitting area, like a big urge to go to the bathroom or just being sick.

So the pools all happens in the scheduled times. They are usually over with half an hour to spare, and everything works fine.

1.4 Perfect scheduling:

More than that, however, we can also schedule sharply the games for the next rounds. Before the tournament starts, we have already mapped exactly which pools will send 2 players from each part of the single elimination bracket. So, when 2 guys are classified from pool A, we can already tell them that one of them will be playing the next day at 8 am on TV 7 and the other will be playing at 9 am on TV 9, for instance, just like we did with the pools. With this format, we can keep doing this until the finals.

1.5 Benefits:

The biggest benefit is that everybody knows for sure at which time they will be playing, so it is not necessary to call anyone with microphones those are there just for general announcements and commentaries. Since everybody knows with precision at which exact time they will be playing and everybody is required to be there 15 minutes early, there are no excuses to be late. Since there are no excuses to be late, we can disqualify people without much complaints, or at least without reasonable complaints. Since we can disqualify people that are late, all pools are either finished on time or even early because we have a bye from a late player. And the margin of safety helps us dealing with possible equipment malfunctions as well.

Basically, we know for sure exactly at which time each pool will begin, and exactly at which maximum time all pools will be finished.

2 - About unexpected high number of entrants:

2.1 Margin of safety:

Some tourneys here are capped. For uncapped tourneys like Evo, we have 25% more TVs and consoles than expected. So, in this tourney, we could run up to 400 people in pools. The final result for qualified players is not much different. We are already working with a 256-man single elimination model with 96 byes after round 1, so we would just cut the number of byes by 40. It is still possible to know exactly who will be playing at which exact time, and this is still covered by our margins of safety. For the elimination brackets, we also have a full margin of safety in hours that will be more than enough for bigger brackets just in case.

2.2 Avoiding the problem entirely:

But for some events, in different regions or for new games, it may be hard to estimate an accurate number of entrants, even with margin. In most Winning Eleven tourneys we simply avoid the problems by closing the registrations a week before the event. For some tourneys, we can even e-mail everybody at which time they will be playing after registrations are over, and we can also plan the brackets very carefully to put people from the same cities as far as possible from each other.

2.3 Qualifiers for byes fulfillment:

If this is out of the question, what we did before for fighting game tournaments are last-minute qualifiers. So we have some time scheduled for the late entrants. Those late entrants will face each other before the main tournament in single elimination. The winners will fulfill the available byes. The losers are already out. We make this pretty clear before they pay for their late registration.

So now we are covered against wasting any time at any stage of the tournament, and we are also pretty much covered against turnouts much bigger than the organizers best estimates.


3 - CONCLUSIONS:

If you read this so far, past my poor domain of the language, it may seem that it is too much trouble just to solve time allocation. But, in spite of my poor communication skills, the suggestions above are easy to implement. With them youll have happier customers that will never be late for the tourneys because they know exactly when they are supposed to play, and I mean down to the minute information for each round. They also are happier and more secure during the event because they also know exactly when is their free time in which they can do whatever they want without worrying about the tournament. They can spend most of the day in the city, if that is what they like, without a problem. The tournament never runs late, and until today we never had a need to speed-up any part of any of our tourneys. We never finished a tourney extremely late. We never had too many disqualifications, and we never had grave complaints about disqualified players for being late.

More important, these are simply methods. There is no need for more equipment or resources of any kind, except for a supervisor to each TV, of course.

Of course they are events, and even the best contingency plans can not deal with all the possible variables. Maybe some day we will have some big problems, but this format has been working well for a few years now. You need to do some math while planning the tourney, but all tourney organizers do that anyways, and the results seems to be pretty good.

I hope this was not a waste of time for whoever had the patience to read it and I hope some of the suggestions above can be helpful for tourney organizers. If not, hey, at least Im practicing my writing.

PS: I do agree that less featured games can save a lot of time. I worked a few years as an event organizer and in many situations less is more in the field, since it becomes a lot easier to concentrate on the core tasks that brings satisfaction to customers.

Edit - For some reason my post makes the screen weird, with a roll bar at the bottom of my monitor. Maybe this is because I copied and pasted it from MSWord. If anybody can help me to correct it I will do it. Thank you.

This is a great idea/suggestion. Evo has grown so big that there is simply not enough time to hold 7+ games in the alloted time slot with no sacrafices (having to make stuff 1 match instead of 2/3, etc). I don’t think anyone wants what happened with 3S this year repeated, and the only way to do that is to focus on the most important games, while trying to give one or two new games a chance to flourish.

3 OLD:
MVC2 / 3S / ST HD (regular or remix)

No arguments here. Agree 100%.

2 NEW
SSBB / SC4

SSBB I wholeheartedly agree with, but SC4? SC’s scene is already incredibly small and mostly dead thanks to the unpopularity of SC3. SC4 may be a good game, but it is still a niche game in the US and in Japan. I still consider SC4 a “maybe” though.

1 TBD
TK, VF, GG, DOA

I think the game that should definitely be given a chance in Evo’s next line-up is clear now due to this year’s turnout in the side tournament: Melty Blood Act Cadenza. The side tournament I believe had more participants than VF5 this year, and the tournament lasted for 8+ hours because it was run on 3 set-ups in BYOC. There were 4 full pools for it with top 2 taken from every pool. The scene has been growing every year, and next year the community should be given the chance it deserves IMHO.

Tekken 6 should be out on PS3 by next year (aren’t they saying March 2008?) so if everything goes according to schedule, this should be a lock.

GG: AC should still be the newest GG game, so if people still want it, that’s fine too.

That would make the Evolution X line-up something like:

MVC2, 3S, ST: HD, SSBB, MB: AC, and either Tekken 6 or GGXX: AC.

It is mutually understood that there are some older games with lower turnouts that still have thriving scenes (like CVS2) but Evolution should be a game that focuses on the MOST POPULAR classic games with the BIGGEST scenes, while simultaneously giving one or two new games a chance to become a part of the standard line-up. Sometimes, a game announcement at a major event gives a new game the chance it needs and deserves.

@fighterbox2006

Wait… wait… you call that bad English? Compared to what? Looks fine and dandy to me.

best idea yet

could make this into a television show too

We’ll, what I’m trying to say is that I’ve always felt that Evo’s main focus was Street Fighter (CVS2, 3S, ST and shit like that) and games traditionally related like Tekken. If CVS2 and Tekken are dropped for games like Puzzle Fighter and SSB that would break my heart :frowning:

Fucken Mario.

Edit: Just a suggestion/comment.

It really depends on if it’s good or not, and how the community receives it. The SC series is definitely not niche tho. SC3, regardless of it being good or bad, had a full nationals organized by the community only. It also outsells Tekken hardcore. I’m not trying to justify it being in Evo next year (or not being in Evo next year), but rather pointing out that it has a pretty big fanbase.

If GG isn’t in the tournament, then there is most-likely a 0.0% chance of MB being in EVO. I wouldn’t hold your breath on this one.

Arcade, maybe by March. Console, I highly highly doubt it in 2008. You never know though… anything is possible.

Have to see how the GG community does post Evo and leading up to pre 2008 Evo. If it’s still popular and the players are supporting it, then it’s definitely worth considering again.

i like to see snk games given a chance at an evo. i know there’s gonna be a low turnout but i’d say its been too long to ignore snk games and we all know they exist.

and i too feel the same way about evo like albert does. for evo just remember to stick to its roots. we don’t need to add games like ssbm and halo 3 just because they’re popular. evo is a fighting game tourny first and foremost and that should be it.

None of those games were dropped for Smash Melee. Which means, even if a Smash game returns next year, none of those previous games would be getting dropped to fit Smash in.

As for Puzzle Fighter, it was simply a suggestion. Maybe it runs fast enough to be an interesting side tournament, maybe it’s not even interesting enough to be on the big screen at all. It’s simply something to throw out there, because eventually someone will bring it up (inevtiably due to the release tonight on XBL).

There’s absolutely no reason to get worked up and then simply give up on Evo with any type of defeatist attitude when this is merely a suggestion / comment thread. It’s more about; How can we make Evo more efficient? How can we make it more exciting? How can we spice it up? What are the pros and cons of running this old game… what about that old game. etc.

Nothing is really set in stone just yet… we have a long way to go. It’s always good to start planning ahead, though.

I didn’t see Halo at this years Evo. It was there when we partnered with MLG, but those days are long done with.

Smash… however.

Are you under the impression that Smash Bros isn’t a fighting game? Well that would be a poor misconception. It’s quite a great fighting game, actually. It has incredible depth, complex techniques, excellent strategies, some very traditional RPS type gameplay as well. Very solid.

Someone other than me finally acknowledges that.

Anything not played with a joystick is not a fighting game. :sweat:

Just kidding, I coudn’t resist. :lovin:

Edit: I miss arcades.

No CvS2 ??? Now Thats just LUDACRIS !!! And I aint talkin’ about the rapper…Evo would suck without it.

-D R B