you tend to fall back on your television reference on numerous occasions. frankly, i dont see the parallel between the fighting game scene and tv. sure, the odds of a single viewer affecting the outcome of events on an episode of a show are slim. but i think thats where this differs. is it really impossible to make a difference on shoryuken? you paint a dismal picture of a scene run by the aristocratic elite upon the backs of peon majority-- a scene where change is impossible.
personally, i believe change proves to be a difficult endeavor, but surely its not impossible. the authority listens not to the loudest man, but to the voices of many in agreement.
i think its great that youre constantly expressing your opinion. what discourages me though is a lack of support from others. perhaps not enough people are in agreement with you to cause as rapid a change as desired.
I’m not falling back on anything. Perhaps the example wasn’t understood. Telling me to do it myself, when I have no desire to organize a tourney and would just rather play like 90% of the community, is just a ridiculous way to sidestep the complaints. You don’t tell a sports commentator to get out there and do it himself since he’s commenting on it. They’re commentators, not athletes. I’m a player, not a tourney organizer. Anyone that decides to run a large-scale tourney is risking displeasing some peeps. Especially if the players’ opinions isn’t first and foremost.
In all seriousness, it’s clear to me that what made SF big in SoCal isn’t what made it big in NorCal, otherwise, I have to believe some folks just played games and had NO IDEA of what made SF stand out and garner more respect than any other games of its’ time. I feel they are just gamers that happened to like SF. In SoCal, sf was serious. Videogames weren’t serious but SF, somehow, was. Honestly, it’s not taken as seriously. They’re just another bunch of games, it would seem. If it were such, ppl wouldn’t be serious about competition over a decade later. The way in which games are chosen is ridiculous. If tourneys were run this way years ago, MK and KI would’ve been taken seriously by SFers. Aside from MK2, other fighters were fun but, they needed to be more than popular for the core of fighting fans to take wins and losses seriously. HELLA ppl played KI but next to no one took tourneys seriously and rightfully so. Sorry, just because a game has fans and is fun doesn’t make it suitable for an SF tourney. There’s a certain integrity to SF…or rather, there used to be.
“you paint a dismal picture of a scene run by the aristocratic elite upon the backs of peon majority-- a scene where change is impossible.”
No, change is possible but, the rest of that line holds true. That’s exactly what it is. If it weren’t, the SRK community would be a part of MANY more decisions. They just aren’t because some peeps think they know better than everyone else. How can I not have that same attitude in return? Evo isn’t just a tourney made by SRK, it was clearly built on the SF scene. That’s enough for me to believe that the SF scene should have a higher voice, as a whole, than anyone else. Everyone else piggy-backed(Aside from Tekken but tourneys for Tekken were never as consistent as SF until recently. It usually died after their early nationals). The attempt was made to bring all separate communities together instead of strengthening SF. Now look. The claim has been made that by 2007, no game in their line-up will have had an arcade release? So now it’s only new games? I’m sorry but that’s just fucking stupid. New does not equate with superiority. Quality of the fight should be first and foremost.
And I talk to plenty of ppl and they are in total agreement. Just because they don’t post doesn’t mean anything. Some would rather just stop then complain. Did you notice that Seattle MVC2 players were absent for the first time in years? I know some that travelled across country to another tourney since shit didn’t matter anymore. When Evo announced it was console, most of the Seattle players lost interest. These guys practice on console all of the time. I lived there. Amazingly, so did the Cannons. Yo, and there are posts that agree. Ppl just don’t like repeating themselves. Soo dissed the changes early on and said that the tourney meant nothing. FFA had the World Championships of SF and yo, that shit is clearly more legitimate and that’s why it was done. Just because I’m the only one who repeats himself doesn’t mean I’m the only one talking. Look around. Posts are buried upon others, I’m sure, but they’re there. In fact, take the other tourneys out and see where SF is really at. Ppl have been jumping ship for some time. It’s hard to tell when there are more console heads coming to take their place.
Let me make this clear. Even the Japanese think console is ridiculous. They hate it. That’s why plenty didn’t go. SRK MUST know this. Hell, they talk to Kuni. Unless Kuni lies to them, they know that the best players in the world have little respect for console tourneys. This is probably why the Japanese got special treatment regarding controls. It would’ve been nice to have some standard US controller set-up but, what for? US players will come just because they know most ppl will show up to Evo. Ppl show up to meet up and kick just as much for the tourney. There’s no reason to go out of their way to appease those of us at HOME.
Seriously, look around. You don’t see much complaining because we’re just changing groups of players. The old SF scene is diminishing and we’re grabbing heads from other gaming communities and consoles. So, the numbers are bigger but, it ain’t SF no more. How long have you been around? I’ve been around for over 10 years in the SF scene. Not the fighting game scene, the SF scene. The difference in the attitude and feel is so different it’s disgusting for a die-hard like myself. SF was a scene with attitude and now it’s pretty fairy flavored.
Yo, a lot of ppl are disgusted but I think most take it as the scene dying like they knew it eventually would and not because ppl steered it off-course to jump quickly to the mainstream to garner more recognition for their efforts. SF was the whore. SRK was the pimp.
What about making top 8 round robin? It is more fair (no lucky bracket effect) and it gives more high quality matches for the DVD. The badis that it might take out a little of the emotion (not as big an issue in some games, MvC2 comes to mind). Another idea to combine fairness with emotion would be round robin and then the top 2 on round robin play regular finals. The player with most wins is considered champion of the winners bracket, so the other finalist would have to beat him twice (2 best of 5) to get the title…
Exactly. Until srk artificially manufactured it beginning with evo2k3, there was no such thing as a “fighting game scene.”
I’m a new school player (although I was aware of and interested in the scene during the og sf2 days, it didn’t get any farther than reading about Tomo and Watson in Gamepro) and I strongly agree with Apoc’s point of view. When I first discovered srk back in early 2002 (Bang the Machine was a main topic of discussion and the first evo had just been announced), it was still about the street fighter community. In the 2+ years since then, I’ve been a first-hand witness to srk’s “fall from grace.”
It has made every effort to turn sf from something special and unique into “just another game.” The evo/b-series tournaments have morphed from the premier annual sf tournies into overblown, “quantity over quality,” any-game-you-can-think-of conventions. The competive tournament aspect has taken a back seat to all this peripheral bull shit.
I’m sure there’s lots of people who feel a similar way – both og players and new-schoolers like me who “get it.” Unfortunately, it seems many of them have decided to just forget about he whole thing and move on. A choice that’s certainly understandable, given srk’s “shut up and trust us” method of dealing with people.
Believe me, I started out as a total srk fanboy. It would have taken a lot to get me to be critical. Well this is it.
The S-controller on X-Box is similar to dreamcast and it’s also easy to find adapters for PS2 controllers to be compatible on X-Box. I’ve personally never had a problem with arcade stick compatibility on X-Box either.
That is not excatly what i meant and i apologize if that is what i said. What i meant, and what the commentators do, are become a part of the process. Do you see a commentator say ‘This NFL sucks, i’m not going to be a part of it’ (DURING A GAME) , ‘man why am i even on this show, the NFL doesn’t care about me, noone cares, they are driving the sport into the ground so why bother’. Then he just sits there and bitches about it for the rest of the game. Is that what you want to hear when you go to look up your favorite sports team?
The B-series were SF championships, evo was titled ‘Fighting Game Championships’ (only the 3rd year of reminding people). Lets assume this is the first time you read the title.
In reality we have both been saying the same thing all along, evo is moving away from being a sf event, and into becoming a fighting game scene event.
The main difference is that i’m saying that this is a great event and we should use this as a catalyst for discussion about how to improve SF tournaments. Your saying ‘OMG how can they do this to us’, well really what have they done, interested more people in SF, brought the japanese here a few times (I didn’t see them coming to MWC/ECC), and got other people interested in running all types of tournaments. You say at the ‘expense’ of people, but what did they really lose, a tournament that only existed in their mind to begin with? A few expensive arcade tournaments in the beginning that wouldn’t have happened otherwise. What they lost is the fantasy that big daddy SRK is gonna buy them their dream SF tournament while they sit on their ass and talk about anime. In reality that was never going to happen.
Maybe the WCo3s was more legitamite in a sense that it was more comfortable for the current top US 3s players. But I don’t think legit is the right word for it. Is that what a legit tournament is? wait for someone else to bring people to you, piss on that event then open your own… that is not a community i want to be a part of. That, if anything, is a recipe for self-destruction.
Plenty of japanese didn’t go as opposed to what, the last tournament they were at, oh that was an SRK tournament too, as opposed to SBO IN JAPAN, as opposed to ECC/MWC? If the best players have no respect for consoles, they should consider the fact that the arcade is just a console too.
Well as with a lot of people I started when WW was out, started playing people when CE was out, but didn’t know there was a scene until MSH came out, which was 1995. Of course to you that may not be SF, but that was to set the time, not nessecarily the game.
A lot of people came around when the marvel games came out, and the same conversation occured, sf is dying, game is less serious, etc… etc… To some degree it’s true since no SF game since then has really been at the same level. But where capcom failed, we will succeed, capcom has limited resources, they can only work on so many games at a time. We have the community as a resource so if evo is putting on one tournament, wilson is putting on another, we could be talking about a whole seperate tournament on the side. Of course if your waiting for SRK to put on the tournament I can see the fustration. I can’t say I share that fustration.
Off what course? the course of trying to fit more people into the corners of the break, of bringing Wilson closer to heart attacks when all the other arcade tournaments collapse and you expect him to run the one real sf tournament a year and keep the scene alive? I think you were asleep in the car.
Quantity over time and with the proper direction = quality, SF only had the scene you speak of BECAUSE it used to be popular, i know some people got a big head and thought it was because of them, but lets step back into reality. They had a system that worked, and it built a scene, so if we want a new scene now, we need a new system for it.
The previous tournament format had reached the end of it’s time, there were too many questions it did not have an answer for, and too many problems it could not overcome.
The reality is that the community is taking matters into it’s own hands for the good of SF. Even tho i am a big console supporter, i agree there are some problems with them. However it is still the right decision, once the problems with consoles are resolved, the arcade industry can be rebuilt from them, and then the tournaments will be held on the rebuilt arcade machines which will be better than any arcade tournament that ever existed. I wouldn’t be suprised if either ,A) that change comes from japan because they already make cabinets, or B) we beat them to it and they adopt our system. Now that’s my plan…
Now you notice that some of that is in line with your suggestions:
You suggested cabinets be built for EVO. That implementation wasn’t good IMO, but the idea is in the right step, you just need to account for 360 and non-360 US players, japan players, and pad players. Currently the best solution is for everyone to bring their own, it could be the best next year, it could not be, we’ll have to examine it.
You suggested A3, what needs to happen is that we adopt a console version to at least keep the game in people’s heads. As this transistion occurs, it’ll become easier to find a way through a official capcom release, through securing some sort of legal emulation (sometimes companies release older games one newer systems that are nothing more than emulated copies, if capcom were to do this it would be perfect).
You suggested side by side instead of head to head, i agree with you on that, there are just some details to be worked out along with the control issue in general.
You suggested that SF not be ‘associated’ with inferior fighting games, fine, we get enough people for SF tournaments, it will have to have it’s own day and then it’s own tournament, the only reason other games were noticed is because there weren’t enough SF players. In goes with the 2007 statement, hopefully we’ll have enough players that we have a championship outside of evo, and evo just gets us more players by hosting whatever the top games are.
I don’t know why you say noone’s listening to you. But we solve problems by going forward, not by going backwards.
So my take is lets hurry up and RESOLVE the console issues so we can start moving forward. THAT is why i ask if you want to be a part of that, if not fine, but I just ask that you either A) be helpful, or B) refrain from your attempted sabotage of the process. It had to be started at some point, it’s still a few years behind where it could be, but at least it’s here now.
So yes, i do sometimes question the community voice when it seems there is no plan in place… when the knee jerk reaction to every suggestion is to compare it to a standard that applied 10 years ago. That’s not to say that plan is the greatest, or will even come to pass, but i think some people haven’t really thought things through before posting, and cling to security blankets rather than to pursue things that will yield better results in a relatively short period of time.
(BTW, copying posts before hitting submit = top tier)
APOC is right on the money. Here are the cliff notes of APOC’s rant for those that are interested. SRK is starting the run things in a mainstream way that caters to the fanboys. Rather than complain, the old school pillars of the community are leaving the scene. This leads to SRK thinking everything is cool because the fanboys have all but replaced the retired old men.
What’s this mean to everyone else? Easy, if you are an arcade player like myself, plan on going somewhere else next year. If you are a console player, go to next year’s evo.
No need for arguments, just support the scene that supports you. (This means you APOC.)
Yes, which again is an example of good progress, evo did not include 3s, which prompted a good discussion on why 3s people weren’t pulling their weight, which was responded to in a big way by driving up support for 3s and that tournament. I’m not so sure that would have happened had that huge debate not started.
Is this a race now? the ‘arcade’ players and the ‘console’ players, should we go to the ‘console’ bathroom or the ‘arcade’ fountain. Funny that the largest ‘console’ tournament is run by arcade players, and the largest ‘arcade’ tournament is run by someone who said he would help with console tournaments if the need arose (at least i think thats what was said). OMG, noone is really for the community, the organizers are all liars, Wilson aka the champion of real sf, not dissing evo, not telling people to fuck evo and go to mwc, and the evil SRK, constantly trying to ruin mwc and ecc so that evo will be the only sf tourney, so they can sell us off to the euro players at a discount and finally be rid of us…
This is a retarded angle, console vs arcade, whatever, we’re all the same, just using a different controller, lets grow up and make this happen. If you happen to only go to one tournament, go to the one you like better, just at least try to have some common sense about things.
You’re right. However, I’ve heard boxing commentators say that TPTB need to get their heads out of their asses and quit being so greedy so a dream match can happen. Usually, I fully agree with them. The best match-ups are the best thing for the sport and not making which camp makes the superior purse. We waited years for some really great bouts and therefore, the fighters were well past their primes and the matches, while popular, weren’t close to what they should’ve been. Boxing is kind of on it’s ass now and they’re doing the same thing. They’re telling everyone that everything is hot now because of all this new talent. Fact is, in the heavyweight division, all that talent can cancel eachother out. Wins and losses are more of a round robin effect because no one is that good. Hell, Lennox Lewis couldn’t see anything left to prove because the division became a joke. His crowning achievement is win over a washed up Tyson. The promoters fucked the whole boxing scene up and now their scrambling to repair it. Luckily, their are different weight classes to pick up the slack. There’s no back up classification for SF. You f*ck it up, it’ll take years to rebuild or it will completely end.
Then why call it Evo? Wasn’t that supposed to send the idea that the scene was evolving? Yeah, it was. I’ve suggested changing the name many times. Nothing evolved, they just changed and switched shit up. The only evolution I’ve seen is in presentation with theme music(and I must say that Tragic was particularly more hype this year than years’ past. He was on point with the announcing). If you’ll recall(being on irc when I was), I suggested this years ago(years before Evo and I was scoffed at, lol) so, I believe it was implemented pretty late but, better late than never. Still, the tournament, itself, hasn’t evolved one bit. 3s has evolved a bit but, I’d say that was kicked off by the 3s exhibition at B5, a Street Fighter tournament. To me “Evolution” directly relates itself to past SF tourneys with that term. Change the name and hype every other major as much as Evo. Of course, only do that if you care about the SF scene at all. Honestly, as long as SRK could gain more numbers, I think they’d drop SF altogether.
cont…
We should use Evo as a catalyst for discussion on how to improve SF tourneys? Wtf? I’m sorry but, this years SF tourneys are exactly how NOT to do it. It was great of FFA to do 3s on cabs because, the sticks Evo provided(except for the Japanese players) were the most ridiculous pieces of shit ever used as a standard at a major. That’s a stellar example of how to drop the ball on a serious issue. Somehow, that’s not what I think you meant but, that’s how NOT to do things. But then we could all walk around with are joysticks all day even if we have to wait hours through all the other games. Wait! That was inconvenient and lent itself stuff getting jacked. sigh Shit like this should’ve been clearly obvious well before Evo. I don’t understand how the entire staff was one-minded in decisions like these. I have to believe things were sold as “the only thing we can do.” At that point, ask the fcking players if you can’t come up with a reasonable alternative! Luckily, there’s a feedback thread but, many didn’t attend because the flaws were obvious beforehand. So, they’re getting a lot of feedback from peeps that found some of this shit acceptable. It’d be better to post a sticky that says, "Where did we fck up?" Honestly ask the entire SF community what could’ve been better. Sure, a ton of ppl cried for arcade and that couldn’t be done. Yo, they could’ve at least have taken a vote from the SF players so that at least one game could’ve been on cabs then. That’s what folks wanted. If you can’t do it, at least look like you tried. Take the money from those piece of shit sticks used in 3s and rent 5-7 cabs for the tourney that was voted on. F*ck it, I’d donate IF my moolah was going towards what the SF scene wanted. I’m not going to donate, ever, when decisions are made without regard to the SF community and I don’t think that anyone else should either. Who wants to say “here’s my money. do whatever you think is best?”
As to what we really lost? I could make a list but no one wants me to explain something that long. It’s enough for me to say we lost a lot of the attitude of competition. Luckily we get the finals and a slew of other games to pick up the slack.
No, it was more legitimate because everyone was on an even level as far as controls. In fact, the best 3s players in the US, as a whole, are arcade players. So, a console tourney is not going to showcase what our best is. Maybe next year or the year after that when this new “standard” has been successfully shoved down our throats.
Quite frankly, I’m more down with FFA’s attitude than SRK’s. I’d rather be a part of that community and I don’t particularly love 3s at all. However, their players and attitude reflect more elements of the way SF is supposed to be than SRK does. There was a blatant cry by the public the moment that console was announced. The need to fill that concern was obvious. FFA heard the players and attempted to give them what they wanted. SRK heard the players scream for #R and they gave them XX. So, as you can see, I feel the mentality towards players, from FFA, is more admirable and appropriate than the attitude of SRK in regards to players’ feelings. SRK would rather weed out all those that disagree so that, in the end, it “appears” that SRK is giving the players what they want. It’s bs but, some will be fooled. Keep in mind I am not speculating here, these were voiced concerns by the players on both counts. FFA went and did it for the players. Yo, when I lived in Cali, FFA was aight but, not worth the drive from OC. Now, I’ll make trips specifically to FFA from Vegas just to be around that type of truly competitive flavor. Funny how the FFA crowd looks a lot more like serious fighters than the SRK staff. Probably because THEY ARE.
That isn’t a recipe for self-destruction. That’s a recipe for needed revolution. SRK took SF, which was good to them, and kicked it in the balls numerous times. Call it Evolution all you want but, the shit is anything but. It’s regressing to an average gaming event that showcases the newest, and weakest, games. I can’t wait to see CvS2 or 3s dropped for CFJ. I have firsthand info from Japanese testers telling me it’s a piece of crap. But, it’s new, and though the other games are better, there’s no place for that at Evo.
How many returning Japanese? Daigo,Chikyuu and Mester. Some came cuz Daigo said that it would be free money. Why didn’t all the players from last year and the year prior show? Because it was console. Hell, you could’ve just asked the Japanese at Evo. KO and KSK were cool with FFA’s arcade tourney. Still, if it were console, they would’ve cried wack. They don’t even think it’s smart to practice 3s on console. No Superguns next year, lol. 3sers are up shit’s creek unless, by some stroke of luck, there is no input lag on the ps2 version. If the input timing is anything like DC, the entire game involves MORE guessing. It won’t even be the sae game. Stupid. Anyway, ask the Japanese what they think of console and then get back to me. As for them considering arcade a console too? Gotta tell them that. I’m just stating that they were dissatisfied with the console idea in the first place, just like Americans.
I don’t have a problem with consoles at all. I do have a problem with how they are implemented. Um…and Velcro isn’t nearly enough. I don’t care how inexpensive it is. If there’s a better, more expensive alternative, drop a non-sf game to make money room for it.
Just to interject, I am biased towards the SF scene. Other fighting game scenes were biased against SF for years. I swear if I see MK and ON.com haters getting tourney treatment at Evo without clearly apologizing and kissing Ryu’s hairy Japanese butt, I’ll puke. I have nothing against adding games, as I have said before. I even had Tekken and VF, among others, at a tourney I held. However, I didn’t dis ONE SF game to make room for it. Anyway, been saying this shit for years, now.
If anyone doesn’t see how adding SSBM to Evo completely pisses on the fighting atmosphere, I can’t explain it to them. To SRK, that’s a good idea. I’m not even challenging the merits of the game. If the fighters were serious, as characters and the same engine was used, sweet. As is, watching Yoshi whoop on Mario is not hype for a fighting event. But then, there’s a lot of non-fighting going on in fighters today. Still, seeing the princess on the big screen is a slap in the face to SF. Clearly, the fighting spirit of SF will be shit upon by the happy happy joy joy attitude of Mario vs Luigi. Why? Doesn’t SSBM have its’ own, thriving, scene? Why delude SF with it then? That isn’t what SF needs…DUH. Know what I’m sayin’? cont…
Bullshit. Although that is an American mentality. Quality, over time=quantity. SF tourneys grew every year regardless of adding games. It even garnered respect. Evo is already gathering laughs, now. Sorry, I’m not happy about the scene being made into a joke. No, you have integrity and stick by what made something good. Improve the marketing or presentation but, a bunch of morons attending won’t equal quality. There was more quality at World’s Finest(a stinkin’ comic shop) then at the huge tourneys back then. Funny, the SF scene was spawned from that comic shop and not the throngs of players that played when it was new. It was the respect the competition and attitude brought in that spread and gained more respect.
Was Alien vs. Predator quality? I’m sure by attendees(ticket sales) the movie company thinks it was quality. I’m not saying that it was completely without merit but, merging the 2 franchises(much like Evo) should’ve made things stellar. Instead it just pleased fanboys. YO! The fanboys were going to watch it anyway. Concentrate on a good story and seriously dope special effects and production and even folks that didn’t care for the 2 separate series would’ve gotten wind and it would’ve been a bigger success. But let’s just cut corners and be half-assed and just cross shit over for the numbers. No, quantity, over time, won’t equal quality. It may bring in more numbers but, what kind of numbers do you want. I don’t care if 10,000 peeps attend Evo if it’s commonly viewed as a geek joke and is devoid of genuine respect. The latest SW trilogy is wack but it’s making tons of bucks. Nope, quality is paramount BEFORE quantity. Otherwise you end up with a lot of crap. Well, that’s my opinion anyway.
We disagree on why SF spoke to many ppl. In Cali, ppl are crazy diverse. Even after the heyday, SF gathered MORE respect. It had little to do with any system and everything to do with the way the players regarded and treated SF. That’s how it got popular AFTER it died in Super and ST era. No one was playing then. How did it get rejuvenated? SFA1? I think the popularity theory is way off. First it was the game, then it died. Then it was the SF scene. SF never needed a new system to be hot. Players treated SF with the seriousness of a religion. Only SF. No other fighters. Now it’s treated with the seriousness of Mario, lol. Maybe this is why shit is so lost. Ppl just don’t understand what made SF special. They think it was just the games. MK was more popular for a split, in the US, and it never was regarded as highly as SF aside from bits in the midwest where they pretended it was the game and not the gimmick that sold MK. I’m glad folks that thought that way weren’t a part of the scene. They just didn’t get it at all.
Shouldn’t the concern be to have the greatest competition ever? The concern seems to be to get as many ppl to attend as possible regardless of the quality of players. If you need that many ppl, to where quality doesn’t matter, in order to pay for the venue, then you’re forcing the scene to grow prematurely. Get a smaller venue and pursue quality not numbers.
Wtf? I’ll believe that when you show me where SRK asked the community for alternatives and the entire community couldn’t come up with ideas. SRK staff may not have been able to answer the problems but, 1,000 heads might have some more ideas than 20. B5 was dope. Evo2k2 could only have been superior had they had full tourneys for both A3 and 3s. Where are the problems? Ooooooooh! They wanted a bigger venue to be cool? Looks more like they compromised for the venue instead of compromising the venue for a superior tourney. Every problem was surmountable. Just because they chose not to or couldn’t doesn’t mean it couldn’t be done. I have a clearly contrasting opinion here. iF B5 and Evo2k2 sucked, then I may agree with you. But they didn’t. The fact is, they just wanted to do more in the organizing department. I suspect that they did so to get light off of the games and the players and more on themselves(if that’s insulting, I can bring up shit that was said directly to me by Tom once). Cuz clearly, it isn’t all about the players. Sure, players benefit, somewhat. However, it’s a lie to say it’s all about the players now.
My plan is simple. Buy or build a slew of cabs for console use. That way, the standard isn’t compromised while pad and console stick lovers can get there shit too. EVERYone is happy, THEN. What do I hear? Too expensive? Well, I’m not buying that. Use the next 3 years’ budget all at once. It’s not as if you’d have to pay for them over and over and over. The tvs and consoles could be rented and the cabs broken down each year for easy storage. Hell, those cabs could be rented out to help other tourneys in Cali too. If that isn’t good enough, blatantly post a sticky asking players for ideas or donations to make this happen(with a guarantee, mind you). Awww. That would make it a community event and not the Evo show:(
cont…
Currently, that solution sucks sweaty donkey balls. If you can’t do it properly, why do it? Another solution could be getting top quality sticks and have them at the exact measurements of a capcom deluxe cab. That means the height AND the distance from stick to stick are exactly the same. Then grab some stools. Since it’s console, a stick can be unplugged for a pad but, you still have to be next to the opponent. For 3 years I’ve brought up the issue that we play against the Japanese in THEIR style on our turf. W…T…F!?! Of course they win consistently. The scales are imbalanced. I’ve played the Japanese on side by side MANY times and they fall for peripheral vison-joystick fakes like ANYone. Actually, moreso since they don’t play that way. At B5 the Japanese respected the mindgame involved there. SF used to be so much more than merely reacting to the screen. It’d be nice to force the Japanese to sit RIGHT THE F*CK NEXT TO US with their sticks and us on ours. We’re in the US. It’s only fair to play American style SF. It isn’t as if the Japanese have us play side by side when we go over there. That complaint has been ignored and an entire aspect of American SF is all but lost or forgotten. To me, that shows that SRK respects the Japanese more than they respect their own peeps. Want more proof? The Japanese had special treatment with sticks again this year. Americans WANTED to play on their sticks instead of the ones provided because they were so much better. Wtf is up with that? At least we agree on something here, though:)
I won’t discuss A3. SRK saw it dying and just encouraged it’s death. That’s so against the true SF mentality of keeping the good games alive. At least wait until the Japanese come over and ruin the game for us before just letting it drop. There are a lot of slow paced runaway games showcased now. It’d be nice to save the fighters that accent…FIGHTING.
I didn’t mean to say that if it came across that way. We’ve lost so many players since 2k2. At that time, there were plenty of players. Only more were interested in attending. Now, that statement might be true but, it’s only true because of the path SRK has taken.
I agree. However, if you go forward and it f*cks things up, then it’s better to go back to the way it was done before it was broken. In this case, going forward is cool but, that doesn’t mean to change things that work fine. It’s like going through a maze. If you make the wrong turn, go back to where you were when you made it and move forward from there. As far as I’m concerned, the forward steps have taken us backward. I can’t prove that, but I speculate that if you have a huge tourney that’s all SF, now, it won’t gather the players that Evo2k2 had and 2k2 would’ve had MORE players had they had full tourneys for both 3s and A3. I believe SF has lost more players than having the other games has gained. SF has not been enhanced at all. It’s been downplayed. Wasn’t the purpose to enhance SF? Yeah, that’s what I was told.
Of course I’d be a part of that if I were really a part of that. However, it’s all the SRK staff. I’ve already pointed to proof that SRK doesn’t care what the players say as long as ppl attend.
You may not see me as being helpful. I understand. However, if SRK seemed to listen to peeps, you’d think I were helpful. WIthout SRK support, I’m complaining. With their support, I’m contributing ideas(apprehensively though:( ). My positioned is viewed strictly by SRK’s take on it.
I’m surprised that you see my posts as an attempt at sabotage. I feel it’s more like the last remnants of a voice from a scene that no one cares is all but gone. I’m just kicking and screaming into the night. My words are just the last bits of hope coming out of me. If my words do undermine what’s going on? Good. Although that’s incredibly doubtful. But if I undermine their killing of ideas the scene was built upon. GREAT! I stand for those ideas and am against whoring SF out for mere numbers. But seriously, my words have little effect but it feels good to vent and it’s nice to know that some, like Tru3tn01, can see where I’m coming from and can understand cuz, it feels like most that would understand gave up already. I’ll use my voice as much as I can cuz this shit is sad to me. I was so not hype this year. This shit’s sapped my energy for the scene and that sucks.
Anyway, if I’m sabotaging through my words than SRK has sabotaged SF by it’s actions.
I copy my shiet before I post too, heheh. It’s just smart.
It’s been said many, many, many times. While it’s true that APEX controlling Evo seeds did encourage certain people to go to tournaments, the reason why APEX isn’t being used to seed Evo is because there was some heavy cheating going on back at Evo2K2. People would fill their tournaments with imaginary people and be rolling in the APEX points come Evo. Just the Pac North division seeding alone was severely fucked up at Evo2k2. The clear three best in norcal at the time were Ricky, Choi and Nelson. Out of those three, only Ricky had a top 3 seed.
While that’s a good reason, I don’t recall any proof that these ppl were imaginary. Wait, I do recall one but, that wasn’t PacNorth.
Why not have it affect seeding and then have seeds picked by SRK based on the players’ passed tourney records? Throw 'em up before Evo and see if there’s any disagreement.
The problem wasn’t Apex affecting seeds, it was certain ppl, if what you’re saying is true. Having Apex not affect seeds isn’t a solution, imo. Perhaps appointing an Apex rep or 2 for each region that are willing to show up every tourney to legitimize results? That’s a lot better than having an all but meaningless ranking system. Apex was hot when it first came out cuz that shit meant something. I stopped caring about locals and any non-majors the moment Apex was disregarded.
If Apex doesn’t reflect Evo’s results, aside from the Japanese, at least somewhat closely, the rankings can’t be viewed as legitimate. I think re-linking the 2 would be a smart idea. Perhaps then, every major could realistically use Apex as a seeding tool.
I’m just saying, all it’s good for now is to say “Our website hosts a ranking system!” Having it just to have it sucks.
WAY too much to reply to in the latest Apoc rant. And to nitpick over one or two point in the whole thing would be a discredit to the rest of it. Plus, I’m not an expert on much of what he said, but I do have my own opinion…
The way I see it, tournaments are as good as the people that attend. Competition? Sure, that’s nice, but most people know they aren’t going to win. Heck, with most tournaments only giving prizes to the top three even top players know that there’s a good chance they won’t win jack.
That being said, there is another problem IMO with the fighting game scene, and that’s Capcom. Street Fighter just isn’t what it once was, because Capcom fails to innovate and upgrade their games properly. I personally don’t see the insult of adding Smash Brothers to the mix. It’s a well-made fighter which improved upon another well-made fighter which was so good it spawned it’s own community. Also the best selling console fighter of all time, but that’s another story.
Recently Capcom has pretty much mae crap. Other than Resident Evil games, can you name some good Capcom games in the last two years? Heck, other than remakes and sequels, can you name any? Case in point, Smash improved from 64 to melee by adding air-dodging, ground dodging, toning down throws and adding more characters and stages so that a lot of the broken stuff was easier to handle or removed altogether. You take Guilty Gear XX and go to Reloaded, and you’ll find a much better game. Why? They tweaked all the characters so that the easy damage is gone and the balance is much, much better. Factor in Sammy’s response to how badly they screwed up Reloaded the first time and you see how they were able to make Reloaded into such a good game. (Of course, Isuka is another story.)
Now take Capcom. Never mind how they haven’t released a new fighting game in three years or so. They take a popular game in Third Strike, and they ‘upgrade’ it by removing unblockables from Urien and Oro, making them weaker. Chun-Li? Ken? Yun? All the same. That decision puzzles me to no end. Furthermore, only a few characters ever change supers in tournament play, from what I’ve seen. (Makoto, Akuma, Elena, Remy, Dudley, Alex, Hugo, Necro, Oro, Ryu, and Yang are the only ones I’ve seen. That may seem like a lot, but I’d only make a strong case for Makoto, Dudley, Elena, Hugo and Yang.) Doesn’t this seem like something that should be changed?
Alpha 3 is still played in Japan, at least at A-cho from what I’ve seen. It seems to me that it still has much, much potential to become popular again. Why not take that game and add some tweaks, like Sammy did with GGXX? Give TOMO and his awesome V-Nash a better chance.
Now Apoc says he has firsthand reports that CFJ sucks. Capcom just doesn’t seem to have it, so I say why not add non-SF games?
Furthermore I’d guess the scene is dying a bit simply because people are growing up. It’s not exactly a prestigious thing in the US to be the Street Fighter champion. I like the scene because I can hang out with my friends and play. A good time at a tournament IMO has less to do with the tournament itself and moreso with the people that go. And you don’t need to practice SF in order to hang out.
Well, CFJ is still testing. I’d rather think that’s the reason they test the game. It sucks now but hopefully the testers get the main problems ironed out. It was said that part of the problem was that all of the systems, together, made one big mess. It’s also really unbalanced in CLEAR favor of the Vampire characters.
They aren’t that close to finishing. As is turns out, there’s going to be 6 or 7 characters per game represented. Also, the “All New” characters, like Ingrid, will all be coming from Capcom Fighting All Stars.
I’m not saying that I have faith in them to make a great fighter anymore. They seem to love randomized guessing a lot lately.
I don’t always agree with Apoc, but damn that guy is slick.
I really don’t understand WHY there is no A3 still, people have offered boards, people have offered cabs, and yet SRK still doesn’t want to do it? What if it was completely self contained, i.e. the players run it all, handle maintenance, bring in the equipment, etc. But you still have it under the list of evo games, would that work? Or even better, since you want turnout for A3 before resubmitting it, howabout having it as a semi official tournament(ie what I described above) until it gets to a certain body count(64 or something, I dunno what you guys would want) and if it does, THEN you could start supporting it more. It wouldn’t detract from the event, cause it wouldn’t bother the rest, but if it DID get enough people then it would qualify as a game you want to run, thus making everyone happier.
All I’m saying is that some people like arcade, some people like console, and some people like both. People shouldn’t be up in each others business because they think their format is better. If you don’t like a tournament format, then don’t go to those tournaments.
Console and arcade are different formats. There is a lot of overlap, but people shouldn’t expect the arcade players to jump at the chance to play on console, and vice versa.
Most of all, I’m saying that people should a) do what they enjoy doing and b) give back to the scene that they enjoy.
I should add that people should stop trying to run everyone else’s life. Hypothetical example: If you don’t like the fact that PS2 urien guardbreak happens later and you can’t hit-confirm the lowfierce for the juggle like you can on arcade, you don’t have to play in the PS2 tournament, but you shouldn’t hate on those that do decide to enter.
