Can we agree on a standard?
Lets say that the standard for japanese controls is a sanwa with sanwa buttons, unless the real arcade proves to be compliant, most people are in trouble. This is like the problem there was with arcades, so why bring it back?
For US controls, i would immediately vote against anything involving 360s, Im sure that a lot of people will disagree with that.
IMO standards are a disadvantage in this case.
Not standard as in, a bunch of MAS sticks. I’m talkin a standard ARCADE STYLE set up. A one piece set up that both players play on like they had for the japanese. Doesn’t matter what peeps say, it can be either 360 or micro switch (micro being the better =P), cause at that point its just like an arcade and people dont walk into a major tournament demanding you switch the 360’s and put microswitchs in. You just accept it and play.
So whichever SRK decides on would be fine, but the fact of the matter is, we NEED an ARCADE set up. There is no other answer. It still causes to many problems with peeps trying to put there ghetto ass controller in instead.
Since it is console from here on out wether we like it or not, then we need to start coming up with a way to make it FEEL like the arcade so we can somewhat mimic arcade style of play. I refuse to let it be random like this years evo with controls breaking, not being able to perform or people fuckin bumping into you when you are in the middle of the match cause nobody knows how to crowd control.
Anyway, Cannons…you should seriously look into this. BYOC does not work unless its a 3d game (weird how that is).
J-Cole
This years Evo was fantastic for me. It was great meeting new and old faces and enjoying the competition at the event. Since this year was on console/super gun which spurred some controversy umong players for better or worst. If the tournament director(s) are planning to abolish using the Dreamcast, then one of the better alternatives in my opinion is to use superguns. Since its not completely 100% arcade “feel”, it is an 100% arcade system. Since Evo did use superguns for 3S, I can say there would need to be improvements on this idea before it can pass. Like standardized joysticks and buttons for the superguns for american and japanese/foreign players. This would probably be the biggiest concern umong players. I know some people would ask why not just have arcade cabinets? My answer would simply be that arcade cabinets are just to bulky and expensive to operate compared to having superguns.
~Cen
While i respect players that have played on arcade, i have very little respect for the arcade format itself. It’s that little security blanket that has a billion holes in it that we have to finally throw away. The problems we have are solved with a little vision and planning, not a cabinet.
From what i see, the problem was not with console sticks, but that evo still tries to appease this ‘arcade standard’, not because they moved away from. 3d games didn’t have that problem, which is why they were better, it’s not because they are 3d. Their people actually realize that there’s no time machine to take them back to 1990, and that we might just be able to make 2004-5 BETTER than back then if we just use our heads.
Why use DC? cause it resembles the arcade (and that 3s/ae wasn’t out at that time). Why provide sticks? cause the arcade does. Well, we’re not in an arcade, so lets fix it. That will remove the randomness.
So the answer seems to be simple: don’t use DC, SRK doesn’t provide sticks (or only provides a mainstream type of stick agetec/mas/hori/RO ).
Crowd control is a seperate discussion from this, but would need to be addressed at some point obviously.
one thing I found very rude and annoying was one of the judges coming up to me and a fellow player and basically saying
"alright, you guys are already out you don’t have to play anymore…"
the other dude was like “I paid $20, I wanna play the rest of the pool” and I felt the same way
I didn’t like how the judge was basically like “get the fuck outta here, you’re eliminated, we’re running behind schedule and wanna move on” (of course he didn’t say this but it’s the way he acted)
Another thing was when you’re playing one game and you’re name gets called on the mic…basically saying “get yer ass over to (ie. Marvel)” and you’re playing Guilty Gear XX, that kinda affects how you’ll be playing…
like “okay, I gotta go over there to play otherwise I’ll get DQed so I’mma try to instant kill or die trying or worse, forfeit”…
just a notable mention as to how incidents like this will be handled in the future…I don’t know if this might matter, but another example would be how I recall Wizard calling Ricky to
3rd strike when he was playing MvC2, then have one of the Cannons say “he’s playing Marvel, leave him alone” being only
3 feet away…that’s kinda irritating
if 3rd strike wasnt on superguns do you think daigo would have been able to parry jwong’s super? parry timing on console is different than arcade
do you think marvel results would be the same if no dc was used? variable counters are a huge part of the game.
even ST had differences that impacted matches but dc is the closest version to the arcade. sprites and speed is different from console and arcade.
these are not completely different games once switched from arcade to console but there are very serious and valid gameplay changes.
It is truly important because it wont be some bullshit technicality that console “fixed” from the arcade version on why a match is lost or won.
games on console that are arcade perfect or closest to the arcade as possible are what should be used. dc’s should be used for mvc2 cvs2, superguns for st and 3rd strike. if ps2’s sf:ae&sfIII game is arcade perfect for 3rd strike superguns need to be used again too.
bottom line:
decent universal sticks (solves most dc problems and of course time in between matches)
superguns and dc’s shouldnt be taken out of the equation, unless an EQUAL or BETTER alternative is used…
what would you rather play basketball with if you didnt have a basketball?
soccerball or a football? of course a soccerball, it’s the next best thing. sure there’s problems but it’s as close as you can get…
I have to agree with most of the points subjected by FMJaguar.
I mean what’s the point of “evolving” into console, when ALL you really want is the “arcade” feeling.
The arcade feeling should come from the people… not from the game. After all arcades has always been a meeting place, and only way to make it “arcade perfect” is to actually have an arcade machine (and cabinet) in the game. Lets take what we have now and improve it, make it excellent and the new standard…
Now this does NOT mean that we should forget the differences between arcade/console. This does not mean that we should completely ignore the arcade setups. We should not strive to place restrictions so that the console tourney feels like an arcade… we should exploit the advantages that consoles provide to create a new standard, which could be better than the previous.
Even when I say this I would agree that standarized seems like a good idea, they allow the use of DC versions (which are the “standard” for console ) and reduce the time between matches… But we a losing the advantage of having everyone playing in their own setup (like they do at home).
This situation is a little hyprocritical… you get to play the same game you play everyday with your console, but you don’t get to exploit it to the fullest because you have to get used to a new setup. Is this bad? is this good? is it worth it so we can fix the problems? That’s something that is up for discussion… but I believe that striving for “the perfect arcade feeling” should not be a necessity, but an option.
EDIT: One final point… I know you “Capcom Players” don’t care much about the game, but GGXX always seems to be left out. GGXX is the only 2D games that didn’t cause any problems with controls or setting up buttons. Because the GGXX players use console as their standard. It is PS2 game that is almost arcade perfect, but people use the console and not the arcade as the standard of the game… something that the 3D players have been accepting for quite some time but the Capcom players can’t seem to let go of the “arcade feeling”.
I think I can offer a fresh perspective on the situation. I have been involved with the Magic (the card game) tournament scene for almost a year now. For those of you that don’t know, Magic is pretty huge compared to Street Fighter. Without going into huge details on how they operate, it’s safe to say that it’s sort of like APEX, except run by a company and taken much, much more seriously. For more information you can check out www.wizards.com/dci , but I’ll just get to my point.
Each year, there is a National Championship for Magic in every country. These tournaments are more or less equivalent to EVO. Now, Nationals is not a tournament you can just show up to and play, you do have to qualify for it by:
-getting top 8 in a regional qualifier tournament
-getting top 4 in the previous year’s Nationals
-having one of the top [some arbitrary number] otherwise unqualifed highest rankings
-getting top 4 in one of the “last chance” qualifier tournaments, typically held the day before Nationals.
for an example, see this link for this year’s USA nationals.
Now, I believe that this format can be adapted to Evolution. APEX will have to be used, but there has to be some way of policing it better. How they do it in Magic, is that there is only one person per region allowed to run “Premier” tournaments. I think if there was only one or two people submitting results for each APEX region, that would cut down a lot on any sort of fraud. Also, the way they do their rating is sort of a chess system. You gain or lose more points depending on who you beat. If you beat someone that has a higher rating than you, you gain more points and vice versa. I don’t know how feasable this would be for APEX, but it’s worth considering.
Here is what I propose:
-Run regional qualifier tournaments that qualify you for EVO. Since the APEX regions are quite large (for instance, Magic has one Regional tournament for each State/Province), maybe 2 or 3 regional qualifiers per APEX region would work.
-Have a cutoff for APEX points where if you are above a certain threshold, you automatically qualify.
-Last chance qualifiers the day before EVO. Should be single elim IMO.
The reason for all of this is to take advantage of what I believe is the fairest tournament format, the swiss pairing system. How it works is that you play a certain number of rounds depending on the number of people (17-32 is 5 rounds, 33-64 is 6 rounds, 65-128 is 7 rounds etc.). After the rounds are all done, the people with the top 8 records (or some other arbitrary number) play in a single elimination finals. The first round is completely random. After that, the people with the same record play each other. So the 1-0 people play each other, and the 0-1 people play each other. The pairings within each “bracket” are randomized, as long as the following rules are met:
-on a best-effort basis, each pairing will have two people with an identical record
-in cases where you have an odd number of people in a bracket (2-2 bracket for example), one person gets “paired down”, meaning he plays someone in the next lower bracket.
-the pairings are done in a top-down method, meaning the people with the best records are paired up first, and if there is an odd number of people overall, the person with the worst record gets a bye.
-a player may drop out of tournament at any time. Usually this is done when a player knows he cannot mathematically make top 8 or top whatever.
-players are allowed to intentionally draw. This is usually done in the later rounds of the tournament if both players are guaranteed top 8 or top whatever due to a good record.
-players cannot play the same opponent twice.
Obviously, this works a lot better for chess or Magic, because all you need is a table. However, by using the qualifier tournaments, the amount of total participants in EVO can be kept at a more managable number, this making this format feasable.
In any case, I think I’ve covered it in enough detail to give a feel for it. I hope I’ve made a strong case for this format, but if anyone has any questions, please ask.
Thanks for reading
I honestly don’t understand what all this controversy about wanting an “arcade feeling” is about. You guys make it sound like we’re aiming to put a dreamcast in a cabinet or something.
What is the “arcade feeling” I’m talking about? Simple, standardized, stable, and quality controls adjusted to the perfect height. Controls that will ERADICATE the NEED for people to bring their own sticks, and all the problems that come with bringing their own sticks. A professional atmosphere that will come with the conformity of each station to a standard. The arcade feeling isn’t a jump back to the pre-evo2k4 ways of dealings, its a jump FORWARD to a better run, more professional and organized evo2k5.
At least that’s how I feel it should be.
If you pay closer attention to other posts you will notice that some people is asking for this… Basically they would like a cab with a TV and a DC on it… this is what I consider a extreme position on what the “arcade feeling” means.
Lets start saying that a “perfect height” varies with the person… so it would be nearly impossible to reach this… but I’ll just neglect that part and go with the “standarized, stable and quality controls”. Like I said this is a good idea because it allows the use of DCs and saves time with button configs. The only downside is that we lose the ability to use the same setup that we use at home. This is one of the advantages that a console tournament brings… Is it worth losing this benefit? Probably it is worth it, but it is one of the points that should be added to the discussion.
We could have 4-5 standarized setups and maybe 1-2 setups were people can bring their own joystick… the default would be the “standarized” setup… so in case of a disagreement will have to play in one of the 5 standard setups, if both players want to “risk” it and use their own joysticks it would be possible to allow them to use the non-standard setup, they will have no room for complains because it was their choice and their fault if something goes wrong.
Also there’s the issue that someone has to build the standard setups, and someone has to keep/store the joysticks before and after EVO. And the amount of setups… will 3-4 be enough? 5-7? 8-10? How many of them should be Jap and how many should be American? I’m assuming GGXX and 3D games do not need these standarized setups and people will still bring their own joystick for those games… but maybe I’m wrong…
Again we are not completely oposed to a standarized setup or to the “arcade feeling” but we are just trying to see the bigger picture… It is easy to say that we should get standard setups but you gotta see the implications behind them and what you are giving up to achieve this.
I think that for the people that couldn’t make it to Evo and that want to follow what is going on, the updates were kinda poor. For the finals you just had a couple people typing in a mIRC channel which is kind of a let down considering it’s the most anticipated event of the year. If it is at all possible you should really consider having a shoutcast commentator so that at least the people at home can hear what is going on through winamp and can listen to the crowd, matches, interviews, etc… It’s better to talk than it is to write at mach speed. I don’t think it would be that hard to set it up but you might need a broadband or better connection to pull it off successfully. It doesn’t have to be throughout the whole event but at least the last day where all the final matches are played.
I was also thinking to have a live video stream of the final matches as well but since Evo depends on dvd sales afterwards, i don’t think it would be such a good idea business wise.
Now that’s a cool idea.
Back to the “standardized controls” argument…
There was one tournament at Evo with standardized controls. Third Strike was ran on Superguns, requiring Supergun-compatible sticks.
I heard a lot of complaining about the 3s tourney while I was there. The number one complaint?
“These sticks are horrible.”
This usually came with another comment:
“I wish we could have used the PS2 version, so I could use my own stick.”
I ran a small poll between the “important” 3S players on whether they would have preferred 3S on Superguns or PS2 for the semifinals, and the results of the poll were overwhelmingly in the favor of the PS2. Those that didn’t vote for PS2 were either:
The overwhelming majority that wanted PS2? Again, they just wanted to use their own stick.
Buk - Thats not a good comparison cause hands down…everyone knows MAS sticks for Super guns BLOW. They are horrible. Using them to say that its not good to have a universal set up is wrong.
I don’t remember the japanese complaining about there double stick set up for CVS2 and other games. I think we can have a set up like theirs and have it work. If set at the right hieght,sturdy and enough space between players…it will be the closest we can get to the Arcade Feel without actually having a cabinet with a DC in it. Maybe one of those controller companies can design a special set up for next year and sell some as well (maybe they already have some…who knows)
Also - Cannons - Why do you refuse to acknowledge the question about reseting the final 8? Why are you so agaisnt this…and why do you think its a good idea to NOT reset it? Take away the fact of time (cause i believe there still plenty of time to do a full final 8 bracket if you get your stuff right from day one) Reseting the final 8 just makes for a better finals and shows the true final 8 champion. Don’t try to push this idea aside…it worked for year one EVO and we need it back.
J-Cole
List please.
How about height-adjustable office chairs next year to go along with this standard setup?
The main problem I see with this tournament format is that it would significantly shrink the tournament itself. not many people would be willing to drag their asses out to Evo every year if they couldn’t be guaranteed to at least ENTER the tournament.
this means that the pot would tank, and it doesn’t look like the sf scene has the sugar daddies to provide some sponsorship.
this means no one would go.
which means evo would die. GOOD JOB YOU JUST KILLED EVOLUTION. :lame:
**
How bout:
My preliminary research shows that it would be $500 for a free standing arcade control panel, this is coming from a complete custom woodworker, My schematics were estimated from http://www.geocities.com/cigarbob0/cbc2ps.jpg
That was about 1 day of work, hopefully between all you guys and a few MONTHS you can work out something better/cheaper. Just do it in such a way that you have enough for everyone so people don’t have to wait around.
EDIT: by ‘you’ i don’t mean evo, i mean the people that need these controls, i’d be suprised if there was still a majority by this time next year.
No blueboxes, no version differences. Noone has to provide controls that are just going to be hated on anyway, everyone wins.
I think when we reset the final 8 last time justin(?) lost twice and still won the tourney, which people complained about. It was switched back, which people complained less about, but i agree it does make for a less interesting final at times.
I think at this point the entire tournament format is under review, it’s early to say that the final 8 bracket will be reset… after all who said it will still be a bracket by next year?
I was just offering a suggestion. No need to be a jerk about it. If something can be taken from a widely popular and hugely successful format and applied to Evolution, then why not at least try to make it work? If not, then oh well.
btw, say what you will about Magic (I’ll be the first to admit it’s a geeky hobby), but it is very well organized and there is a lot of money to be made in it.
I know Magic is well organized and there’s a lot of money to be made from it, but that’s mostly because Wizards of the Coast realizes that they make all their cash off the tournament scene. The fighting scene has no such luck with Capcom.
Considering the Cannons really seem to be pushing Evo in the direction of a large, convention-style event, I honestly don’t think that this tournament format would work very well at all.
If you think about it, what this format would do is basically cut out the qualifying pools and reduce Evolution to only top-20 brackets or so. Not only would this kill the entry fee (and thus the pot), like I said before, but it would also work against the regional seeding system that was used this year. I’m from NorCal, and I’d have one hell of a time qualifying in CVS2, especially compared to random scrubs from Bumfuck, Nowhere. If Evolution is held as a large tournament, I can see how I stack up against other people from all around the country.
IIRC, SBO works on a system closer to the MTG scene does. Unfortunately, we don’t have the convenience of the bullet train, so I don’t think it’d work too well at all.
P.S.:
hahahahahahaha you play magic
