I agree that buffing cr. MK is a bit unreasonable since it has so much range and hit/block stun. But I still disagree with speeding up his sweep making him too good in any way. He’ll be a little better, but that’s it. There is no vortex after tatsu sweep, the sweep itself will still be -11 on block. So it can’t be thrown out brainlessly like Gouken’s sweep, and still isn’t as safe as Ken or Akuma’s sweep.
But besides that, I’d really like buffs to his axe kicks so that it’s actually a viable move in this game. I mean this is Evil Ryu’s unique move, but we never see him use it because of how bad it is. MK is used for combos, and EX is used for prayers(and is unsafe), and that’s it. I’d like to get more mileage out of this move and I think what I propose is fair. As for LK axe kick causing a knockdown, I would actually be all for that even if we lose a big damaging FADC combo. I think the benefit of a knockdown on hit is a lot more viable then a big damage combo that cost 2 bars and involves several 1 frame links.
Dive kick/cross up doesn’t work because after a sweep(unless you’re in the corner), you have to walk forward a bit give show the threat of that. And when you do, you can’t land the dive kick meaty enough to combo into. When people know that, all they have to do is worry about being with the cross up only or just block correctly even if they get hit by the dive kick(or just simply dash out of either move). Besides that, he just gets the basic stuff that every character can do off a knockdown like empty jump low short or counter hit set ups. You can’t consider that stuff a vortex or you can say everybody has one. Again, he doesn’t have any dangerous mix ups off a sweep, it just helps a bit so he has more opportunities to do the simple things like empty jump low short or throw mix ups.
I only need one thing. clHP activating from 2 pixels further away.
Then tap tap cl.HP xx MK Axe Kick will work on everyone. GGs
Bonus prizes would be an extra frame of hit stun for dive kick, so it is easier to combo Seth and sagat etc. And an extra frame of hit stun on j.LK so the fake cross up LK combos into cr.LP properly.
Something else would have to change on the lk AK in order to give you any decent pressure potencial with such hard knockdown. With lk AK’s current frame data and positioning on hit (point blank) it wont allow you to do any hard-to-block jumpin, the only thing you will be able to do is a dive kick, the crossups will miss. You wont have time to walk back and get into the necessary distance to hit a crossup before the opponent get up.
I dont know what to think about such change if the framedata of the move is changed to allow a better pression on the opponent’s wake up. Id hate to lose the comboing potencial because I like to do those combos a lot plus it pushes the opponent all the way towards the corner and it allows Ryu to do ambiguos setups (lk. AK fadc cl.mp, lk tatsu)against almost the whole cast. But the timming of such combos are really a problem because to miss them twice in a set will send you to the losers or get you eliminated from a tournament. We all know that its pretty commom to have lagging setups on tournamments, this year’s evo had a lot of problems with that due usb hubs, streamings and whatever else. When doing it one frame earlier or later means to win or to lose, it becomes a lottery when going to such tournaments with E.R., hes the most timming-depending char in the whole game imo. I had lost in all the decent tournaments I tried to play with E.R. due dropping combos and missing the setups coz of lag. I keep trainning with E.R. only to end up playing the tournaments with Ryu and with my matchs starting 0-1. In an ideal scenario we shouldnt take lag into consideration when balancing a game, but well, thats the reality of the fighting scene today. Akuma wouldnt be the dominant force he is today if all those 2-3f links were 1f links.
Overall, the current ER’s pression game on knocked chars midscreen is really weak, far from ambiguos. Its very easy to discern when hes going for the crossup and when hes divekicking when you have experience playing against him, and his normal air moves are as easy to block as Ryu’s ones, even easier because his j.HK is a lot easier to block than Ryu’s j.HP.
? Would you mind telling me why you think I’m high? What, exactly, makes Evil Ryu’s game far away from the opponent worse than normal Ryu’s? As far as I know, most of the relevant tools are the same, and Evil Ryu has a bunch of other ones on top. Seems better to me. Unless our concept of far away is different, in which case yes, he might actually be worse.
lk axe kick fadc on hit +4 or +5 (easier combo. You still go for cl.mp since other normals won’t combo into mk axe kick)
mk axe kick on hit +5 (again just to easen up the 1 frame dependancy. If comboing from mk axe kick into cl.hp becomes possible, maybe increase pushback on hit, w/e)
better frame data on shakunetsu
better forward movement and lock properties for ultra 2 (so opponent’s don’t fall out and you can actually punish stuff that’s -7).
better invincibility on ex dp.
lowered hurtbox on cr.mk
more stun
something about cr.hk to stop it from being a completely useless button. 6 frames is imo too much, but other options would be 1-2 extra frames of knockdown for an automatic safe jump like ryu (and since you can’t combo it against everyone it wouldn’t be as big of a deal) or extended hitbox so it actually outranges cr.mk or less recovery, i dunno, something.
ughh idunno maybe better cr.fwd and sweep and easier to combo into. Better fb both regular and ex. More health. Better tatsu for punishing fbs. Better jump RH for punishing fb from greater distance. Better Super. More health. E.Ryu gets wrecked by O.Ryu.
Actually, their fireballs are identical in frame data, O. Ryu just does 10 more damage, which really doesn’t matter (although O. Ryu’s ex fireball has a faster recovery, so I guess you’re right about a better EX, but I love me my U2 combos with E. Ryu so I’m fine with his). The cr. fwd is faster yes but I don’t know if you could say better, since with E. Ryu cr. fwd xx Hadoken is almost always a true blockstring, and it basically has sweep range, which is seriously awesome. The rest of what you said is true though (except for that last sentence D:<).
Alot of these are stupid. I’m sorry but E.Ryu is just execution heavy but he has a ton of tools…That is like asking to make C.Viper easier… She’s just execution heavy, she SERIOUSLY does not need to get any better. ERyu is just under utilized, people are starting to realize how good he is recently.
A ton of tools? Well yes he does technically have a lot of tools. It’s just too bad some of them are much worse compared to their predecessors. I like Shaku, but recovery is worse then Akuma’s. Teleport is nice, but much slower than Akuma’s as well. Comparing her to Viper doesn’t work. Viper’s tools are much better. She’s top tier for a reason. While I don’t agree with Evil Ryu being bottom like the tier thread would suggest, he’s not better than mid at best. And no, I definitely don’t buy him as a character who is good enough that he doesn’t need any changes if there is a AE 2013. If there is one then like many other characters, he’s due for some buffs.
As for changes again. One thing I forgot to mention is his hop kick tatsu cancel. Right now they’re all unsafe on block. LK tatsu is -4 and the other two are even more unsafe, although I don’t know how unsafe. I’d like to see LK tatsu change to -2 with MK and HK tatsu being -4 and -6 respectively.
Evil Ryu might use something, sure. Stuff like Shaku recovery just seems a tad overcautious on Capcom’s part for example. I’m just annoyed that people seem to have a bit of Cammy Syndrome going on. They just look at ER = weak => buff (a lot). He already has a lot, and the damage conversion potential is absolutely insane. He’s primarily held back by being uncomfortable at an important distance (cr.mk ~ sweep range). People are annoyed by this. Then they suggest a boatload of buffs seemingly without thought. It’s like they don’t realize at all that Evil Ryu needs to be handled very carefully because of all that potential that’s masked by the clunkiness. Any small thoughtless change, at that distance specifically, can have really big ramifications.
Then I point that out, and everything is apparently bad. Wakeup pressure, faraway game, everything. What’s with that? Reality calling, people. I don’t think you’re stupid, so try to use that brain for a change.
The shaku recovery is nondangerous, so yes. Axe kicks, very risky, but could be good if handled properly. Again, the combo potential devil is lurking in the background, as well as the potential problem of four different axe kicks with wildly different properties - some overhead, some safe and so on. wtf is a man to do here, assess which strength of kick it was in half a second or less? Hopkick I have no opinions on. Is hopkick xx tatsu, srk a thing?
No, a lot of people are just discussing this for fun throughout most of the character forums.
All four are already very different right now, I’m just suggesting making them a little better so they can see more use. But anyways, only LK axe kick combos with low forward and it isn’t a true block string so it can be reversal’d. All of them would still be risky to use in some way so they can’t be abused.
Hop kick tatsu is different from regular tatsu. The LK and MK version are like a slower version of Ken’s regular tatsu, so no knockdown. The HK version looks like the last two hits of Evil Ryu/Akuma’s tatsu.
Again Komatic, I see you’re going back to what you were talking about before. And again I say speeding up the sweep is OK, it’s just the low forward that should be left alone because that’s ER’s key to getting big damage besides being known for it’s reach and hit/block stun. As for the Cammy syndrome, this is Evil Ryu, not Cammy, Seth, Akuma, or some other high/top tier. He could use some extra stuff if there is a new rebalance.
Its very easy to deal with them, and its easy to identify the move’s strenght when you know the character. The guys I play here are under-the-average players and they can to identify wich version Im using with good regularity, specially the ex one, they never eat them.
and there are some hints to deal with them if you dont know E.R. very well. If you see E.R. cancelling anything but cl.mp into any version of the move, do your reversal, you will beat it. If your reversal does not comes out then you are dealing with the LK version of the move, wich is -7 on block, punish it as you wish, just remember that it pushes back quite a bit, most of the shotos cant punish it with a dp (E.R. can to punish it with a kara shoryu). Ryu can to hit a sweep, c.mk into anything, super. Akuma can do a sweep, what means E.R. is pretty much dead. I think you figured out the range and what you can do by now.
When you know the above mentioned informations it becomes a hell of a risk for E.R. to use the axe kick without previous hit confirmation. If you are used to discern the AK’s strenghts, then you will start to see E.R. performing them once in a life time (watch sako’s videos with E.R., you are going to have a better idea of it all).
Another hint if you arent used with the AK’s yet and blocked a cl.mp followed by an AK: try to interrupt it with your reversal, if it doesnt come out then you are dealling with a LK or MK version of the move. Act like it is the MK version (you are +1 here) and if it is the LK version nothing of what you do will come out because you will be blockstunned.
E.R. is only dangerous when people does not know what he does. Any char is dangerous when you dont know him/her. E.R. is far from beeing ambiguous midscreen. Cammy, Akuma, Viper, Seth, Fuerte, Ibuki. Those are ambiguous chars, E.R. is not even near them in such category.
If you guys are really talking about their faraway game, theirs cr.fwd and sweeps are irrelevants. O.Ryu have better hadoken for sure, better super for such range and the health is better. s.HK seens to be identical on both chars. E.R. controls the space better because his kara dp and U2 cover certain ranges that O.Ryu doesnt. E.R.'s tatsus can be followed by both his Ultras from such range (U1 will connect all the hits, U2 wont get the animation) , so its much better than O.Ryu’s tatsu at the same situations. Im not sure but I think O.Ryu can to do the U1 after a tatsumaki even midscreen if it hits properly, the thing is that the needed range and antecipation needed for such thing to happen are absurds. Focus and walk speed means almost nothing here.
I guess they are pretty even in such range. But who the fucking cares? No one is going to be playing from such range, its useless to get yourself at such distancies. Both Ryus are bad on such range and theres only a few chars whose are going to try and keep them at such distance. Right now I can only think of Dhalsim, in this case E.R. is better because he have better tools to place himself closer to the indian.
I think he was refering to the fact that people tends to rotulate chars as weak when they are just not well explored yet. Then, a patch kicks in buffing them when it wasnt necessary, turning such chars into monsters later in the game.
I disagree with that, by the way. I think E.R. is definitively not a viable character to win regularly, in AE 2012.
Thanks for the axe kick information, useful stuff.
The Cammy Syndrome thing is solely due to the seeming carelessness of the suggested changes and the downplaying of his oki, nothing else. ER needs a smidge of something, I agree with that, and also that him winning really big events consistently is not likely atm. Just saying that his potential is monstrous, so be very careful in cleaning up the clunk, that’s it.
Cammy and Akuma are the best characters in the game due to their options and unblockables which are becoming more prevalent as the game becomes more and more discovered. And the 50/50’s. These are all things Evil Ryu does have he just hasnt been explored enough and he takes a ton of execution. But there are still top level players getting it done with evil ryu. Guys like Napps.