The slowest and unsafe axe kick should be an overhead, not just his ex version.
Anyone asking for faster cr.mk isn’t too good at the game and probably shouldn’t be asking for balance changes. It is completely unreasonable and it will break him. You see top evil ryu players that footsie well and tell me he needs faster cr.mk. It is one of the best poking tools in the game. The only thing he’s missing from his footsie is a reliable whiff punisher, to which his sweep should be changed to 6f start up but leave it so it’s punishable on block. His knock down options aren’t as strong (for a reason) so changing his sweep start up by 1f shouldn’t break him as long as it is punishable on block. Sweep should just be a better whiff punishing tool as currently, neither his cr.mk or sweep does a good job of it (and even if u do whiff punish with cr.mk, the best u get is canceled into fireball fadc which is usually too far to get anything else but another cr.mk into lk tatsu or shoryuken if they’re crouching)
If his f+mk changes to hit lower hurtbox/hitbox, his footsie will be more than complete.
I hear a lot of people saying to change his axe kicks and I think I have good suggestions.
Have the LK axe kick have safer (more pushback or what not)
Heavy axe kick should have faster start up (just slightly more than his mk axe kick) and should have less pushback so he can properly utilize his +1 frame advantage on block (better yet, it should be +2 on block if the startup of the heavy axe kick is not changed). I would even go far as to say leave him almost at point blank.
Also, and more importantly, I feel like his dash distance should be increased by 10~20%. He should be able to connect to his cr.hp off of his mk xx fireball FADC at most distances (assuming u’re not hitting their limb at some absurdly far distance). This will just give him more reasons to be feared in neutral game when he has 2 meters, and not just in corner.
tl;dr
Give him a reliable whiff punisher in his sweep (change to 6f start up, but leave it punishable on block. I should not be a poking tool)
More uses of axe kicks (his go-to canceled special should be his axe kicks, not fireballs, it’s what makes him stand out and different than other shotos)
Further dash so his cr.mk xx fireball fadc conversions in non-corner neutral game will be stronger and scary
These changes are more than enough to propel him to be a big threat in Ultra if done correctly.
I agree with most of your suggestions except his low forward. I don’t think it’s being unreasonable to make it 1f faster? At 5f I would agree, but not 6f. At 6f he still can’t combo into it from jabs for example. He also needs to be close to his opponents to maximize damage off low forward fireball which puts him in a position to have to deal with faster normals that don’t have the same reach as his low forward. 7f makes it a bit too slow to compete well, 5f is too good. That’s why I think 6f is the sweet spot for this move considering the rest of his repertoire.
But I don’t think it’s needed if he gets A) a 6f sweep and B) a saferLK axe kick. Like you said, that 6f sweep will help him when it comes to whiff punishing and it gives him a combo into a hard knockdown. A safer LK axe kick means he can use it more safely to pressure and hit confirm into FADC combos from max range that can still do max damage. I’d prefer these two buffs and leave cr. MK at 7f. If they want to give us all 3, I’ll take it and I still don’t think Evil Ryu would be broken. But he very much could be top tier though.
I’m also in favor of your buff to HK axe kick. The +1 advantage on block is useless because of all the pushback, this needs to be decreased. As for the faster start up, people are kind of torn about that. Some people are worried about losing corner set ups. I’m willing to risk it if it’s fast enough, say 22f. If it were just 24 or 25 then it’s not worth it.
I agree that if he doesn’t get a 6f sweep or safer lk axe kick or fixed hop kick, 6f cr.mk is justified. But it makes more sense for them to give him the aforementioned 2~3 changes.
As for the HK axe kick, they should increase the active frame of it by the amount of start up that’s reduced so we can still do dp fadc heavy axe kick. This change will also give the heavy axe kick as a meaty utility without being a stupid active poke (recovery still the same so u can’t just throw it out). Evil Ryu’s the type of character who just faces you head-on without too many vortexy-bull shit. Having this change on his axe kick will give him more flare to be in your face more on knockdown.
I’d say 22f or 23f start up with 6f or 5f active, respectively. I guess if they were to change it like that 23f start up with 5f active would make more sense. And i wish his cr.mp have less pushback so we can do light,light, cr.mp, fst.mp pressure instead of finishing cr.mp with a cr.mk as it has too much gap right now.
Either way, like 90% of the mid to low tiers in this game, he’s only 2~4 small tweaks away from being really powerful.
I’m really excited for Ultra. Assuming they balance it right, most of the cast are going to be monsters. I’m willing to bet Ken, Dudley, Yang, Juri, and Evil Ryu will be very powerful and legit if they do it right.
Yeah… lets give the guy whose low forward xx hadoken is a true block string, an even faster low forward.
What is the logic in making his light axe kick the same concept? you hit confirm low forward xx light axekick and you have to FADC to continue it anyway, not only that but its harder to combo off the axekick than it is a hadoken. His heavy axe kick is fine, if anything they should make it an overhead and leave the frames the same, considering its incredibly slow and easy to react to.
Give him akumas sweep and call it a day~
It’s not that simple, you have to look at his overall tools. Is the current version of him good enough that he shouldn’t get this kind of buff? I would say no. He’s a pretty straight forward character who lacks vortex or a good way to maintain pressure after finishing combos. Low forward, fireball, FADC is his main way to deal damage and is basically the only thing he has going for him. If this is what he’s all about, then he should be kind of good at it since he can’t vortex you or pressure with great normals or safe(get in your face) specials like other characters. But like we discussed earlier, that’s only 1 way to buff him. I’d rather they go the other route and buff his sweep to 6f and his LK axe kick to -4 on block instead.
The LK axe kick FADC combos are harder to pull off, but they are guaranteed axe kick combos at any range. With cr. MK fireball you have to see what you’re in range for. You may or may not get a axe kick combo. If you land cr. MK > fireball against a far away opponent, you also have to identify if you’re opponent is crouching or not so that you don’t whiff a LK tatsu. With LK axe kick FADC you can always get a MK axe kick combo for very high damage as long as you got good execution. A safer LK axe kick allows him to fish for this. The current version is too unsafe at high level where it will get punished consistently.
If they change the c.MK’s startup Evil Ryu will become a monster. I already stated that here and my mind haven’t changed since then. What Id like to see right now is a better tool to deal with guys with advancing pokes like fei and akuma. My suggestion was to make S.LP 3f with 3 active frames. Right now its 4f with 2 active. I guess no new combos will be possible with that change once the number of frames of the move will be the same. Actually, a few links may even stop working because he will hit the opponent a bit earlier. I dunno why exactly they aren’t considering it, seems pretty obvious from my point of view. He have no answer for a lot of shit from these guys. I guess they are afraid that spamming s.LP starts beating everything in the game, dunno. If they change the other guys’s advancing moves instead its fine aswell.
Decreasing the pushback of c.MK on block would be good too, to make it better to press with c.MK xx hadoken. People doesn’t knows but its a lot unsafe against like half of the cast. People will have poke E.R. while he tries to get in position to c.MK or to make it whiff and punish properly, like its meant to be.
To change the damage on the trades against dives in order to make it favorable to E.R. (I hope they change it for the whole cast) in order to stop making dives a so win-win shit. Even when you see it and punishes it with the AA, the diver is rewarded better than the guy that AAed. It may be more of a nerf than a buff to E.R. once he is beneficed a lot with that once he have his own dive, but its just stupid and retarded.
I dunno about the 6f sweep. It would be fine as long as he doesn’t get able to sweep a lot of characters after LK tatsu I guess.
Bigger pushback for LK AK on block is welcome but not a priority to me anymore. Id like something that allow me to finish a block string safely when the opponent is in the corner. If you did c.LP, cl.HP, you’re done. Gonna get punished doesn’t matter what.
I’m a bit worried with the new LK tatsu. I’m not sure but I think Evil Ryu will land at point blank after hitting the opponent with it, in this case he may be able to cross-under almost the whole cast in the mid of the screen without wasting meter after reseting he/she in the air, just like he does against the opponents he can to connect cl.MK after MK Axe Kick in v2012. That will make him a lot stronger, and a lot more retarded. It will make him more vortex oriented.
We already made our stances clear on where we stand about certain changes and what we want so no need to go down memory lane. As for having the ability to do more mid screen cross unders, I don’t think that will mean much. It’s not even ambiguous like Sakura’s EX tatsu cross under, it’s pretty clear where he will end up. If he can do it against more characters, people will learn how it works and how to defend it.
It really sucks playing the waiting game. I don’t care if nothing is set in stone now, I just want to know the list of changes even if they disappoint me later by taking away some good stuff.
How monster would he be if they made his low forward xx light axe kick a true, and safe blockstring, in exchange for his hadoken, plus a faster sweep.
I have a boner just thinking about it.
Akuma - fast startup, fast recovery, a vortex character.
Ken - good startup, good recovery, a mix up character.
Ryu - fast startup, fast recovery, a solid character.
Sakura - good startup, good recovery, a frame trap character.
Evil Ryu - good start up, good recovery, a frame trap character.
Akuma startup - cr.MK (5), cr.HK (6). Crouching MK is shorter than cr.HK… I understand.
Ken startup - cr.MK (4), cr.HK (8). Crouching MK is shorter and way faster than cr.HK… I understand.
Ryu startup - cr.MK (5), cr.HK (5). The poster child for the game… I understand.
Sakura startup - cr.MK (5), cr.HK (7). Crouching MK is shorter than cr.HK… I understand.
Evil Ryu startup - cr.MK (7), cr.HK (7). Crouching MK is almost exactly the same lenth as cr.HK… I am confused.
(1) Solution
As an Evil Ryu player, I understand why his crouching normal kicks are slow. The real problem his character is having with these normals is recovery. Imagine the situation this character gets after using (cr.MK) a normal both slow in startup “AND” in recovery. This Shoto is meant to use his hado (crouching forward kick, hadoken. Imagine the opponent walking toward you to bait your “SLOW” cr.MK and then jumping on you while you’re in “SLOW” recovery. This is unfair to his character. The recovery frames on his cr.MK need to be decreased (from 16 to say… 13).
(2) Reason
His cr.MK Axe kicks are stuffable (except from really close which would make no sense to use cr.MK).
His Jump kick (Foward MK) is stuffable.
His Tatsumaki is punishable.
His Shoryuken is punishable.
His cr.MK Hadoken is not stuffable or punishable (except from really far) and is what a shoto primarily uses.
(3) Extra problem 1
Also, I know it is his cr.MK that is too long and that his cr.HK is supposed to be this way. That is why his cr.MK has 7 frames of startup. Then why is his cr.HK 7 frames and almost no different (1/4 a tile longer). If cr.HK is not given a longer hit box, than it should be given 6 frames of start up or a faster recovery (from 26 to say 20). Otherwise there is no point in even having this “same in lenth and startup” knockdown.
(4) Overpowered Evil Ryu problem 1
Also, his dive kick (better than Akuma’s) as well as Akuma’s is overpowered. The hurt box needs to be pulled lower so that the character can actually be hit. It is like saying “OK, you saw me stop midair to do a dive kick…now trade with it or be hit by it and if not, stay in block so that I can further chip and pressure you.”
“A character shouldn’t be given a flaw because of his/her power… but given a balance in character.”
- Darrell
USF4’s Evil Ryu until now:
Evil Ryu
(via BNBBN)
Vitality increased to 950
Crouching HK start-up is now 6F
Senbukyaku (F+MK) hitbox expanded downward
Target Combo can now be done from far standing MP
HK Ryusokyaku start-up reduced from 26F to 25F
The HK AK startup is so useless. It could have been a super nerf but with the delayed wake up the setups doesn’t matter anymore. the s.MP into HP target combo would become a great OS, but it will be just ok now, due the DWU.
More health is aways good, but he wont as good as he is in 2012 w/o the setups.
I think he could be better then he was in 2012. Remember, everybody is losing their set ups, not just Evil Ryu. My quick thoughts on all the changes
-More is health is good, like you said
-A faster sweep will help him be better in footsies and gives him a combo into sweep now. But that may not matter with delayed stand up now
-No more whiffing against lows, good buff
-Target combo working from far MP is actually a pretty good buff. Now he has a knockdown combo against crouchers.
-I agree with the HK axe kick be 1f faster rather useless. If it was 22f, now we’re talking. 25 is still painfully slow.
Two more changes were added, I guess after you posted that
(via wnder1261)
Crouching MK guard recovery increased by 1F
Tatsumaki Senpukyaku has farther movement distance
The 2nd one we already knew about. The first sounds like they’re saying he’ll be less negative after a blocked cr. MK. RIght now it’s -4, so I guess that would make it -3. I’m excited to try these changes out against the rest of the changed cast and see where the new Evil Ryu stands.
HK axekick being 1 frame faster ain’t useless imo, I remember when it went down from 27 to 26 frames, I could see a big difference between the two even if it was 1 frame. 1 more frame faster will make it look nearly like his mk axekick. The mp to target combo is a very nice change.
The difference from 27 to 26f was that it allowed us to combo cl.MP into it. Only that.
I guess they increased its block stun, To decrease its recovery seems useless, and there have been a lot of discussion about c.mk xx hadoken block string during the pre-beta debate.
I asked Kim1234 about Evil Ryu changes. For the most part they’re still the same. LK axe kick looks unchanged, hop kick tatsu’s looks unchanged, HK axe kick is not a overhead, and so on. But what he did tell me is that Evil Ryu’s teleport moves as far and is as fast as Akuma’s. I’m a little skeptical about this one. I hope it’s true though, that would be a big buff.
I feel the 1f speedup up HK axe will make it a little more reliable to use in those instances where it misses opponents when plugged onto the end of an FADC DP (i.e. they hit the ground before it has a chance to connect - usually this is the result of confirms into the proceeding tatsu pushing them just that little bit further away).
The c.hk speed up means (among other things) he finally has a viable whiff punisher - the amount of times this sluggish move outright fails me when I attempt to whiff punish is pretty frequent. Hop kick’s expanded hitbox is nice too. c.mk’s reduced block recovery is a fine buff also. I suspect E.Ryu will feel a lot more responsive with these two (c.hk, c.mk) changes. Nice to see his signature damage and stun (so far) hasn’t been changed.
E.Ryu will remain a damage machine. I’d like to say he’ll raise a few rungs on the ladder, but at the same time all of the cast are receiving equally promising buffs. I’m looking forward to seeing some video footage so we can see how these changes apply in matches for sure.
buffs for execution sloppiness i dont care for [thats the reason im sure hk axe got buffed so lk axe fadc cl mp xx hk axe isnt “soo hard”. dp fadc hk axe combo is piss easy so eh]
Or it was done to fix his plentiful corner fake cross ups as maybe they could remove unblockables but not fake cross ups so hes getting the akuma F throw treatment due to having a shit ton of fake cross ups?
the sweep i think could be sick + the tatsu moving forward
my speculations
midscreen axe kick combo tatsu reset cross unders [deathgun suggested it may be possible]
tatsu sweep may lead to dive kick/j mk mixups depending on how far the movement is
mk axe kick, cr lp, far mp xx tatsu being universal
cr lk cr lp, st mp xx tatsu being universal at ranges where it used to wiff
rest of the buffs are nice
Here is Kim’s tweet reconfirming that Evil Ryu’s teleport is the same as Akuma’s now
Another thing he confirmed for me is that Evil Ryu’s light tatsu still whiffed against Bison when you do MK axe kick, cr. LP, st. MP, LK tatsu. His light tatsu is being buffed so that it will travel further but it’s still not far enough to hit everybody under that circumstance. It may work against more characters, but this confirms that it won’t work on everybody. Which is unfortunate because I was hoping we were going to get a reliable hit confirm from MK axe kick before committing to LK tatsu.
When they say they increased cr.mk’s recovery, it means that it’s -5 on block now, not the other way @ -3. It basically means the move is laggier on whiff
It’s actually less safe on block by 1 frame, so if you don’t cancel your cr.mk you shouldn’t press a button after it. Block and whiff is completely different, E.ryu’s cr.mk is 14 frames recovery on whiff. Not really a big change and kind of useless unless it somehow makes cr.mk less of a true block string in further ranges but idk.
Sweep buff sucks too imo, 1 frame faster isn’t going to help whiff punishing. I can already whiff punish with his cr.mk. What will help is if his sweep has same range as akuma’s so it can help whiff punishing further reaching normals that his cr.mk can’t punish. He also can’t combo into sweep off of normals unless it’s counter hit because none of his moves give +6 on hit, you will only be able to do tatsu sweep on the characters akuma can do and delay wakeup makes that useless.
I’m happy about the teleport buff but they should have kept it the same and nerfed akuma’s teleport into Evil Ryu’s current teleport because defense is going to be too good in USF4 and bison got a teleport nerf.
Hop kick buff is good but it should be able to combo on airborne opponents because it sucks when you do hop kick cancel into ex tatsu and it hits someone’s backdash only for the ex tatsu to whiff and leave you easily punishable. It would also lead to better combos like lp.dp aa into hop kick>ex tatsu or dp fadc>hop kick>ex tatsu.
Both his ultras need to be better and fixed. Make U1 travel faster so it will help in fireball matchups because currently sagat, ken, and ryu can easily ultra your fireballs but Evil Ryu has to do it 10x faster or make a read to ultra through theirs. Finally, make u2 travel further so it doesn’t drop people out but if u2 gets a range increase then I think it would be better than u1 for beating fireballs and that might be too good.
Oh yeah and ex dp needs more invincibility, this is a must. It’s so shit right now, akuma can basically do free air fireballs to get in because evil ryu’s ex dp has so little invincibility you can’t even hit akuma out of it.