Elena General Discussion

Dafeetlee: Punish Ken’s DP with st.HP. You lost out on so much damage.

cr.MP xx M SS = 208
st.HP xx H SS = 268
st.HP xx M RH > EX SW = 370 for 1 bar

More damage but harder to execute:
st.HK > cr.LP > cr.MP xx M SS = 284
Walk back M/H MS > cr.LP > cr.LP > cr.MP xx M SS = 306 (vs M/H DP only)

It’s awkward to hit with MS due to it going under the opponent if you do it too early. I just stick to HP for consistency.

If you backdash a Zangief Ultra 1, punish with H MS.
Make sure to input it as early as possible. The only time it won’t work is if you backdashed on the last possible frame (her hand will be pointing diagonally up+forward during the freeze)

Edits: Added a few things that I don’t use due to being inconsistent, and a note on Zangief

Opinions on b.HK? A -0 move that leaves the ground in 6 frames might work as a decent anti low/throw option. Though st.HK is airborne 1 frame sooner, links, and has more range, I feel the reduced frame advantage is an issue unless you are at a far enough range that you can’t follow with a cr.LP, making the ability to link afterward redundant unless you want to take a (big in some matches) risk.

Nice sets Dafeet, awesome execution!

While both are airborne, st.HK doesn’t go over lows. b+HK does.

The first few active frames hit high up, so there are quite a few crouching moves that b+HK goes over and hits meaty, allowing you to combo without a counterhit.
Best example: If you beat out Ryu’s cr.MK with Elena’s b+HK you can always combo off it.

Edit: grammar

Yeah I always forget to go for st.HP because last time I tried to punish a whiffed DP with st.HP, I lost the set because of it (Me vs Sanford at Resistance 3).

The HP MS on backdashed Gief U1 is good though; I just instinctively do EX MS because it’s lower risk/harder to drop.

HP MS is the optimal meterless punish for almost any big miss.

It’s my favourite way of making Decapre think extra hard about mashing psycho sting in between my jabs. 300 meterless damage for blocking that garbage.
It’s also particularly good for punishing Sagat’s TU, Akuma’s DP, Guile’s FK, Cammy’s Spike.

Practicing using it against all sorts of things in training mode is really worth it.

(edit: how did i forget about cannon spike)

Hi, I just started playing around with Elena and she’s pretty fun but I find myself getting blown up by strong fireball zoning, like all I can think of doing right now is either focus dashing the fireballs or pre-emptive slides to stuff them which is a pretty bad idea I guess because I don’t even know if I can space Elena’s slide to make it safe.

Anyway I know she apparently beats Gouken and at least goes even with Sagat right? But I have no idea why these are good matchups for her, I also don’t understand her slide that well either right now, like can I react to any fireballs with it and go under them or is this not possible? I should probably go watch some match videos and I will but I also thought i’d post here for some help.

Oh yeah, is it possibly a good idea to react to some fireballs (maybe slower ones like chun/ryu) with u2 and just let the fireball hit you? Or will you get less hp back than just a fullscreen cancelled u2 (obviously not a good idea vs chun with u1 stocked).

Her slide is good, but you need to learn the range and the timing, and not to not abuse it or you’ll get punished hard. You can react with it to fireballs from full screen, closer than that you need to make good reads.
Don’t forget neutral jump against zoners. Forward jump is very risky, as well as block-dash forward. But focus dash cancel works great.

Once you’re in against a meterless Gouken they need luck or a good read to get rid of you.

I let fb’s hit me out of U2 all the time, from full screen it feels like it’s worth it but I don’t have the numbers.

Countering Projectiles
From the right range it’s possible to slide under a lot of fireballs on reaction. Just hover around at the max range of slide and do it when you see them twitch. Just be careful when they have meter as faster EX versions will generally hit you.

Against faster projectiles and EX ones it tends to be a bit too hard to slide on reaction so you need to rely more on reads.
Slide doesn’t go under Chun’s fireball at all, or Sagat’s low one, but with a good read you can aim to trade with it for a knockdown.

EX Rhino Horn is better at close range. It’s possible albeit difficult to do it on reaction. You have to be pretty damn close for it to hit properly, so buffer the motion while standing just outside the opponent’s normal range and be ready to hit the kick buttons when they twitch.

Evading
Standard tactic is to do an early jump over a projectile so you land just behind it. The opponent can’t throw another one until it goes off the screen, which gives you a moment to put yourself in a better position. For the most part its best to use neutral jumps, but you can often get away with a forward jump as long as you stay outside their anti-air range.

Backward jump is safe against landing on projectiles. Don’t press a button in the air you can land directly on top of one and still block (except Sagat’s high tiger).
Empty neutral/forward jump works the same way against Chun, Dee Jay, Dhalsim, Guile, and Sakura (non-charged). This makes it awkward for them to deal with an empty forward jump from just outside their anti-air range. It’s also safe against Juri/Sagat’s low projectiles, but their high options make it less safe.

Against Gouken and Seth, you can use cr.HK to go clean under a fireball just before it hits you.

Ultra 2
Ultra 2 forces people to play more aggressively. A cancelled heal gives you about 100HP back.
A full heal as the opponent throws a fireball will give you more.

If someone is playing super defensively then don’t be afraid to just sit back and focus everything that isn’t an EX.
Think of it as getting about 15HP back every time you focus a fireball.

The amount of Ultra charge is only significant for a full heal; it has hardly any effect on a cancelled heal, so just do it the moment you get an opportunity. Holding back on it means any damage you take during that time is being converted into a relatively insignificant amount of healing.

Slide deals with most projectile games except Chun, Sakura, and Sagat/Juri’s low shots. Given that you get a knockdown and huge frame advantage on hit/block from max range, you really want to use it then. Warning: SPACE YOUR SLIDES WELL VS SAGAT. Tiger Uppercut has good enough speed/range to punish sloppy spacing with your slides.
EX Rhino Horn is amazing vs projectile characters. At -3 (iirc), dedicated projectile characters have an insanely hard time punishing it. Don’t be afraid to throw it out; the momentum can swing the match around in your favor.
Don’t forget regular cr.HK! There is a space between close range and safe-slide range where cr.HK is extremely hard to punish. Abuse this against most characters (harder to run on Gouken because of that damned sweep) to gain knockdowns without having to telegraph your slides by backing up. This also leaves you in a great position for j.MK crossups!
As far as the Gouken/Sagat match ups themselves go, here’s some advice:
Gouken:
-Be careful with your wakeup uppercuts if you do them. Gouken can poke you with his cr.MP so that only the first hit trades while the others whiff, meaning that he can recover first and punish.
-As I said earlier, his sweep is VERY annoying because of its speed for the knockdown he gets for hitting. If you find Goukens mashing a low move during your cr.LP pressure, mix in an occasional b.HK to crush his sweep and net a little bit of damage.
-Gouken’s jump is very bad for him in this match up. Instant air j.HP beats out everything he wants to do in the air.
Sagat:
-Unlike most other characters, Sagat has a low projectile. You sometimes have to focus/jump through them like a normal character. THIS ISN’T A BAD THING. Low shots have a bit more recovery than normal, so using EX Rhino Horn once you have meter is an excellent idea.
-Kara DP is real with this character. Avoid jumping unless you know he’s doing something else. Your slow jump and giant hurtbox in the air make you a prime target.
-Much like Gouken, Sagat cannot challenge you air-to-air. Abuse this when you see Sagat jumping around. In addition, his large size makes crossups very strong against him.

These Elena buffs. Yesssssss

This is huge:

Elena:

bigger crouching hurtbox in neutral/hitstun/blockstun
fixed a bug where she could not cancel her pre jump frames?
switching the priorities for lynx tail and scratch wheel
bigger hitbox on her thigh on cr.LP
bigger hitbox and hurtbox on cr.MK
j.HK: fixed a bug where she could be counter hit during the active frames
L scratch wheel startup reduced from 6f > 3f
H scratch wheel: bigger hitbox on the third hit
L/M scratch wheel: fixed a bug where she could be counter hit during the active frames
L/M/H scratch wheel: first hit forces standing
M lynx tail: first hit on hit/guard pulls the opponent
H lynx tail: first to third hits pull the opponent on hit/guard
fixed a bug where you could not use delayed wake up after getting knocked down by this move
L/M/H Lynx tail: hitbox extended forward
M Rhyno horn: fixed a bug where you could not be counter hit during the startup frames
Rhyno horn all versions: first hit now connects with crouching opponents
EX Mallet Smash: advantage on block changed from -4 > -5
Spin Scythe all versions: fixed a bug where the opponent could go through elena if they were behind her

Buffs I did not see coming:

  • lk DP being 3 frames. That is huge
  • c.mk’s expanded hitbox. This will see a lot more use in neutral now

I just took it upon myself to quickly translate the Elena section of the patch notes.

Edit: now that it’s out and somewhat tested, I’ve added some of my own notes.

[list][*]Crouching hitstun, neutral crouch, crouch guard hurtbox increased.

  • Unlisted: Throwboxes no longer move backwards. Can be more easily thrown out of things like backward walk, cr.LK, cr.MK, etc.
    []Fixed issue where certain specials cannot be performed during jump startup.
    [
    ]When Lynx Tail and Scratch Wheel inputs overlap, Scratch Wheel will now come out instead of Lynx Tail.
    [*]cr.LP hitbox extended backwards to her thigh.
  • Has also been extended forwards by ~0.2 small training stage squares.
    [*]cr.MK hitbox and hurtbox extended to the end of her foot.
  • Extended by ~1.6 small training stage squares.
  • Hitbox and hurtbox are unchanged relative to each other.
    []j.HK counterhit state removed from active frames.
    [
    ]L Scratch Wheel startup changed from 6f to 3f.
  • Startup to the second hit is now 6f instead of 8f. Easier to juggle with, but still worse than H SW.
  • Still worse as an anti-air than H Scratch Wheel.
    [*]H Scratch Wheel third hitbox extended downwards.
  • Now juggles properly after against Cammy, E.Honda, Poison and Rose.
  • Also allows it to connect after Rhino Horn.
    []L/M Scratch Wheel counterhit state removed from active frames.
    [
    ]L/M/H Scratch Wheel first hit forces stand.
  • Second hit no longer misses after hitting a crouching opponent.
  • EX Scratch Wheel is unchanged.
    [*]M Lynx Tail first hit pulls the opponent inwards on hit/block.
  • Nerf. Can’t space the first hit to be safe on block.
  • No longer any reason use it over L/H Lynx Tail.
    [*]H Lynx Tail first 3 hits pull the opponent inwards on hit/block.
  • Opponent’s reeling animation has also been changed. Fully connects at maximum range against all characters.
  • Less safe, but it was already really punishable anyway so it doesn’t matter.
    []Fixed issue where delay standing does not work when H Lynx Tail hits a grounded opponent.
    [
    ]L/M/H Lynx Tail hitbox extended forwards and upwards.
    []Fixed issue with M Rhino Horn startup being flagged as crouching instead of counterhit.
    [
    ]Rhino Horn first hit now connects against crouching opponents.
    []EX Mallet Smash block advantage changed from -4f to -5f.
    [
    ]Fixed issue where an opponent dashing into Spin Scythe from behind passes through Elena.[/list]

<3 these changes

The goal appears to have been to make her combos more consistent.
I LOVE IT.

These changes blow. Capcom killed Elena.

I like them a lot. Many of the changes I wanted back in June. Sad to lose the “hahaha half of C.Viper’s moves whiff on crouching Elena!”, but it was coming, and only fair.

Very curious about that Rhino Horn change. Will have to play around with that when this drops.

Changes not perfect, but they never are. Got much more than I expected.

the cr.lp change is the only one that confuses me. SRK says it expanded to her thigh area which…doesnt make much sense.

I like that how RH is a legit armor breaker now. The buff to cr.mk is great too

Can someone explain some of these changes to me? I only understand making LK Scratch Wheel start up made twice as fast, cr. MK hitting further away, EX Mallet Smash getting nerfed and Lynx Tail actually becoming useful.

Rhino horn hits crouchers on the first hit, makes it better as an armor breaker and it can see more use in combos
cr.lp “buff” doesnt make any sense to me. It’s either that they expanded the hit box vertically, which I dont see the use for, or they nerfed it to a completely useless state
Hurtbox has been expanded so moves that used to whiff on her crouching probably wont anymore(ie everything viper)
fixed her DP whiffing on crouchers after the first hit
Fixed her input overlaps

The overall implications are:

Nerfs:

  • Crouching hurtbox is bigger so things like Thunder Knuckle and Dankicks won’t whiff any more. Nothing mentioned about the hurtboxes on her normals, so it should hopefully still be possible to go under things on purpose with cr.LK, etc.
  • EX Mallet Smash being -5f makes it easier to punish. Characters with 5f DPs will be able to mash them out. Some characters will be able to get a bit more damage.
  • H Lynx Tail now allows delay wakeup. Ambiguous j.MK setups are no longer guaranteed. If you switch to doing the less safe alternative of ambiguous empty jump meaty cr.LK, you will have time to react to the technical message with meaty f+MK for an overhead mixup instead (will have to find different setups for the distance due to H Lynx Tail now sucking in).
  • M Lynx Tail sucks the opponent in to make it combo properly. It is now very unsafe on block unless spaced such that the first hit whiffs.

Buffs:

  • cr.MK has more reach. Its hurtbox was also extended so it presumably has the same ‘priority’ but from a slightly longer distance.
  • Lynx Tail has more reach. The hitboxes have also been extended upwards (not entirely sure what effect this will have; maybe it will hit certain cr.MPs instead of them whiffing past each other)
  • H Lynx Tail sucks the opponent in to make it combo properly.
  • Can no longer duck under the first hit of Rhino Horn, which should make it usable in H Lynx Tail FADC combos against crouching opponents. Might be able to beat out some lows by doing it raw. Might be able to hitconfirm into EX Rhino Horn instead of EX Mallet Smash (probably not worth it).
  • L Scratch Wheel being 3 frames means you can mash it out for a 3f punish instead of having to select-plink a cr.LP.
  • L/M/H Scratch Wheel forces stand. This stops the second hit onwards from whiffing against crouching opponents on hit.
  • Juggling into H Scratch Wheel tended to only get one hit on certain characters (IIRC Cammy, Honda, Poison, Rose). The last hit has had its hitbox extended downwards to make it hit properly.

General bugfixes:

  • No more accidentally jumping forwards instead of Ultra.
  • No more accidental EX Lynx Tail when you’re trying to anti-air with EX Scratch Wheel.
  • cr.LP hitbox used to only cover her ankle and foot. I guess they extended it up her entire leg to make sure it doesn’t whiff through the opponent, not not that I’ve ever seen that happen.
  • j.HK and L/M Scratch Wheel used to give the opponent a counter-hit on trade. This will no longer happen.
  • M Rhino Horn wouldn’t give a counterhit when hit out of its startup, and you could go under things like High Tiger Shot with it. This has been fixed. It was too slow to be of any practical use anyway.
  • Can’t dash into Spin Scythe from behind and teleport through Elena into the hits any more.