I would REALLY like to see the data.
lol k. http://shoryuken.com/f333/gentlemans-encyclopedia-260691/index3.html#post10591128
here you go
Hey guys, how much do you use Dudley’s super? I used to ignore it, basically because a while ago I couldn’t really land it in a combo reliably and the his Ultras seemed more useful (especially U2) and more commonly available. Now that I can pull it off if I land a hit-confirm or free punish; I’m curious whether it’s worth the full bar or should be ignored in favor of EX MGBs, Jet Uppers and FADCs.
I ask partially because I have a habit of playing like shit and focusing solely on landing an Ultra or Super when I see the respective bar is full. I take it no one thinks of landing an Ultra/Super and that becomes their goal; rather than just reacting naturally to a punish opportunity.
For example I’ll sometimes get panicky and just do LP Jet Uppers trying to land one and hit-confirm it in order to land Ultra 2. I get that that is incredibly scrubby behavior, and assume I shouldn’t ever need to consciously consider my Ultra; instead just wait for something to react to, add it onto a combo or option select etc?
Dudley’s super is only really useful in corner combos, combos off cr.hk, or combos that end the round because his 1 bar combos do good damage.
It’s not good for AA because they can fall out of it. It is a good wakeup option but obviously very costly and unsafe.
However, if you have super and it’s the last round and you hit your opponent in the corner, you should almost certainly do the super combo.
Cool, good to know. My game really goes out the window when I start thinking specifically how to land a super; I’ve done ducking straight xx super more than once and had the entire super whiff after the straight hits. Same with Jet Upper cancels. It’s a relief not to have to focus on it too much beyond combos which are generally easy to hit-confirm.
I currently don’t use cr.HK because of its hefty start-up and recovery frames; should I try and use it? Perhaps as an Oki. Two quick, probably stupid questions: When trying to do a meaty attack/oki do you usually fit in some normals to whiff, or use some pattern to get the timing down? Because I completely guess based on feel, regardless of what I used to get a hard knockdown.
And is it worth doing “c.LK + c.LP, c.LP, s.HK” xx for the low-hitting hit-confirm? I randomly thought about it in training mode and theoretically it would perform as usual, but provide some chance of teching a throw if my timing is off, a simple OS.
The general rule is don’t use cr.hk outside of combos according to most of the people on here. I like it because it has a lot of active frames for catching backdashes though. But people are gonna come on here and say that I’m dumb for using it instead of cr.lk probably. Also, cr.hk and f.hk have about the same startup so making good meaties is easier when I just mix up between the two of them.
cr.lk cr.lp s.hk is the best hit-confirm, yes. Doesn’t work on Rog, Blanka, or Vega though.
If you’re doing a meaty cr.lk there’s no reason to OS tech unless you fuck up anyway because they can’t throw you out of a proper meaty. But if you can do it without messing up your execution, why not.
The problem with whiffing normals during a wakeup situation is that you make your mixup predictable (even if there is still a mixup involved). If you change your timings and don’t abuse the same setup over and over again it makes your opponent easier to open up. For example, if I always do cr.lk cr.lp s.hk xx lk ducking -> throw/low jab, you can tech the throw and block a followup jab consistently. But then if you expose them to that mixup, you can trick them with cr.lk cr.lp f.hk. Nobody OS techs from that distance usually so they’ll eat it.
So basically yes you can use normals to set up your timings but don’t think of it as “this is what I should do always whenever I do x.” Thirty-four had a guide for meaty overheads off a forward throw by whiffing two f.mk’s I believe. A long while back I posted a meaty setup involving side switching in the corner, you could probably search for it if you wanted to.
Note that Dudley is not my main right now so take everything I say with a grain of salt.
Even if Dudley’s not your current main I’m sure you know a lot more about him than I do lol.
Oddly enough that explanation of alternating mix-ups answers another thing I didn’t quite understand. When you read that Dart Shot is 14 start-up it seems unusable in typical play, especially with its short range; hard knockdowns negate that, taking much longer than 14 frames anyway. When you condition the opponent to a mix-up you buy yourself loads of frames to act while your opponent is preemptively blocking said non-existent mix-up. It’s something I’ve just began realizing when I started using c.LK more than f.HK; despite the c.LK having more active frames the f.HK becomes a great option because you’re commonly given more time to input it while your opponent thinks they’re safe, blocking low. Using f.HK less seems to strengthen it beyond its frame data.
I imagine I’ll have to spend a while reading frame-data and testing in training mode to come up with some block-strings that don’t leave me too exposed. And use the riskier ones once the safest ones have conditioned whoever I’m playing against to tech/block low/high.
I’ve watched loads of the best Dudley’s on Youtube and some in the replay channel and I think I’ve made the mistake of watching advanced play and trying to emulate it as a beginner. When you see Marn using f.HK as a reset it seems impossibly fast and I’d have expected the same results when I tried blindly.
I’ve built up my execution from being terrible to being acceptable by my standards, so now I’ll try and incorporate some of this stuff into my game; which should, hopefully, make me a bit better overall. Thanks a lot for the help Kikuichimonji; makes the game a lot more bearable when I can be pointed in the right direction.
Resets into overheads only work well at higher levels because most lower/intermediate players mash jab, throw tech, or reversals. Also you usually have to do the raw s.hk link instead of using a jab as a bridge so it makes it harder. But I do that anyway even when I am in range. Meaty f.hk -> s.hk is actually a really easy link too.
f.hk actually has great range versus crouching opponents and is hard to read if you don’t just throw it out there. It can actually hit some characters from too far out to combo into s.hk, and in AE it’s only getting better.
The problem is there is no real reason for your opponent to not mash a 3 frame jab or just mash a crouch tech anymore after 2 blocked taps, because you can’t land counter hit st.HK xx LK Duck into st.HK xx EX machine gun blow for huge damage. All you have now is walk back fierce for reasonable counter hit damage to put a fear into your opponent to mash buttons early.
I found that however against characters who out footsie Dudley severely that walk back Fierce option puts you at a disadvantageous position.
There is quite frankly almost no reason to attempt an overhead in ‘open’ play because the fear of mashing something is removed. Taking a walk back fierce or a st.HK xx LP Machine Gun Blow is far more preferable to eating an overhead into 350 dmg and another knockdown.
I am really disappointed about the removal of the st.HK counter hit set ups in AE.
The only way you can realistically incorporate it as a deterrent is after 2 f+MKs fishing for counter hits and then if blocked go into a point blank delayed st.HK to catch mashing or throw techs because you can still combo into another st.HK on counter hit.
However mashing fast normals or even stand throw against Dudley’s pressure game is a very viable tactic now.
I read somewhere that his target combos give him more frame adv on hit and block, is it true?
in AE?
In AE, they have more advantage on hit, so you can combo off of them (+4).
How do you practice Dudley’s option selects against wakeup backdashing in training mode? Can I use the record feature somehow or will I need a training partner?
You can already combo off a lot of them, are there even more you can combo off of in AE?
I think you can combo s.lk xx s.mk -> s.hk as well as s.lp xx s.mp -> s.hk in Super, but both are 1 frame. So no, the advantage on block/hit is not at all related to the move you cancel into or from.
Record Dudley doing the setup as the dummy, then backdash yourself. This is the best way to practice option selects.
Ok so I’ve been trying to teach myself how to use dudley over the past week or so, and had a couple questions:
Regarding the use of target combo 2 OS on the opponents wakeup, is there a more damaging follow-up if they get hit with it other than t.c2 xx duck upper (not considering 2 bars for fadc)? My frame data knowledge isn’t very good and I’m not too sure about what exactly dudley can link to what, so sorry if this question was silly.
Also, do you guys make a habit of buffering lp machine gun blow OS after every single f.mk? I ask because when I try to do this in my frame trap loops (idk if loop is the right word) close to the opponent, I can’t connect a cr. lp afterward if the fw.mk does in fact hit and i’m buffering lp mgb. Is this just an execution error on my part, and should I bother doing this?
Finally, I was wondering what dudley’s most damaging combos are from the following situations: After connecting with f.hk overhead, after any focus crumple not near the corner, and after a connected cr.lk?
Do a jet upper for knockdown - either lp jet upper -> hp upper or just cancel into hp upper.
Eh, only OS when you think they might backdash.
Yes
Yes. But you should also consider looking into which characters OS ultra/cr.mk/jet upper works on.
Unless the overhead was meaty or counterhit, the best combo in terms of damage is s.hk xx EX MGB. Midscreen follow up with mk/hk duck straight -> hp upper/ultra (character specific), corner follow up with duck straight -> lp mgb/ultra. However just following up with a duck uppercut is much easier and comparable damage. The f.hk -> s.hk is a 1 frame link but very hit-confirmable and can be plinked.
cr.hp -> s.hk xx EX MGB -> …
f.mk -> s.mp -> s.hk is much easier and has comparable damage but does not work on half the cast (shotos, cammy, Chun, + others). f.mk -> cr.mp -> s.hk is consistent on all characters but is 2 1 frame links instead of 2 2 frame links.
Depends on who you’re fighting. Against most of the cast, cr.lk -> cr.lp -> s.hk xx EX MGB is your best damage. Against Claw, Boxer, and Blanka, you cannot do this combo. Your alternatives are cr.lk -> cr.lp -> cr.mp xx mp mgb/mk duck upper (with the duck upper you can fadc into 1 frame link cr.lp), cr.lk -> s.hk xx EX MGB, or cr.lk xx s.mk -> lp jet upper -> hp jet upper. Note that the normal hit-confirm CAN work on these 3 characters, but Blanka and Claw have dumb hitboxes that makes the s.hk whiff when they’re crouching. Crouching Rog pushes you away on wakeup because he’s so wide.
Thanks a lot, Kikuichimonji. For fun, I was learning some of dudley’s longer combos involving some of his target combos, for ex. f.mk, cr. lp, st.lkxxst.mk (t.c #?), st. hk xx ex mgb, follow up. Do combos like this offer any advantage over his more fundamental ones other than style (which in itself is not very classy, imo)?
More meter (so I’ve heard) and more opportunities for resets with throws and f.hk.
Everyone crouchblocks when they’re getting combo’d. Unless they’re mashing D:
Slightly abstract question; is dignity holding my Dudley back a little?
I refuse to mash uppercuts/jabs/grab, do wake-up/random Ultras, Supers or EX MGB. Also I choose to use the combos that have several 2 frame-links and push on wake-up more often than not; having to land the meaty moves which can be tricky.
I realize I’m bitching some but I really have a hard time in some matches; dying via fireball chip/wake-up uppercut/ultra and generally losing despite putting more effort in. I get that that’s a Dudley trademark, but is being a beginner with honor going to make the climb up a little more frustrating?
And in a less “woe is me” question; is there a character whose differences could make learning them benefit my Dudley? Learning to zone with Dhalsim, play footsies with Chun, manage charging with Balrog or whatever. I’ve never spent time with other characters and I’m interested in expanding my knowledge of how the other half plays and maybe develop skills that might transfer back to Dudley.
You’re playing online probably. Online is bad.
Option select tech is an important option at all levels of play. You don’t have to mash it, but if you can automatically tech predictable tick throws and they’re not punishing you for it… why wouldn’t you?.
Jabbing people out of walk up grab is an important counter because it’s easy to do very quickly. Also on things like Balrog’s dash straight/level 1 TAP, cr.lp beats all his options on block, as long as the jab doesn’t whiff because of spacing.
If you you’re afraid of wakeup ultra on the opponent’s wakeup, your offense sucks. Delayed cr.lp/back throw on the opponent’s wakeup can block wakeup uppercuts/ultras while not just holding down back if they do nothing. There are lots of strings like this in the game where if the opponent reversal uppercuts they whiff or get blocked but it’s still hard for the opponent to interrupt you.
If your opponent is too random don’t go for offense, just out-footsie him. Ducking straight through fireballs (not Guile’s), anti-air with s.mk/cr.hp/s.hp/EX Jet Upper, and against most characters s.hp allows Dudley to control a lot of space in front of him. If the opponent uses standing pokes s.hk buffer EX MGB can blow him up. If an opponent isn’t smart don’t treat him like a smart player, he’ll kill himself if you give him the opportunity.
If you’re losing the round to fireball chip you’re dumb because you can ducking through them even on wakeup.
If you’re losing to mixups then learn to block/tech throws better. Don’t ignore backdash/wakeup EX Jet Upper. You shouldn’t do it predictably or when your opponent is thinking about it, but just 1 uppercut can check the opponent and make him respect you a little more.
Just play Dudley more and try to read your opponent. Don’t think of mixups as “either I do A B or C,” think of it as “He’s not expecting the overhead/throw now so I can sneak it in” or “He’s an asshole who backdashes out of everything so I can blow him up with option selects or EX MGB to catch it.” Most bad opponents are easy to read if they’re thinking at all, and if they’re not thinking they’re going to kill themselves by jumping or throwing bad fireballs.