Double Elimination is overrated!

Double Elimination seems to be the format of choice in America. Seems like its almost the standard format. I guess tournament organisers are big fan of it, because it gives all players a 2nd chance, and by most big tournament using the same format it creates some consistency for the players, so they know what to expect when entering tournaments.

Now my problem with double elimination is that round robin format is infact far superior to double elimination it comes to number of games and matches, which in turn gives better value for money to the participants.


Lets take a 64 man tournament comparing double elimination and round robin as an example. All matches are best of 3 (first to 2 wins).

For Reference:
Double Elimination = 126 Matches (252-381 games)

Examples:

  1. Round Robin - 16 groups of 4 players, top 2 qualify from each group into double Elimination = 126 Matches (252-381 games*)

  2. Round Robin -16 groups of 4 players, winner of each group goes into winner bracket, runner up into losers brackets of double elimination = 110 Matches (220-333 games*)

  3. Round Robin - 16 groups of 4 players, top 2 qualify from each group into Single Elimination = 96 Matches (192-288 games)

*Takes into account in the grand final, the winner of the loser bracket may win the first match, forcing a 2nd match)

Things of note here:

-In example 1, you can give everyone a garuanteed minimum of 3 matches each whilst keeping the same number of total games and matches.

-In example 2, you can give everyone a garuanteed minimum of 3 matches, whilst slightly decreasing the number of matches. Its also possible to greatly decrease the number games aswell whilst keeping the double elimination format for the knockout stage.

-In example 3, you can give everyone a garuanteed minimum of 3 matches, whilst greatly decreasing both matches and games (even possibly to half the number of games, however that is highly unlikely), at the sacrifice of double elimination for knockout in favor of single elimination.


Now lets try and give players even more value for money whilst keeping the number of matches and games lower than that of a regular double elimination tournament.

Lets come back to the 64 man tournament, but this we have a round robin of 8 groups each with 8 players. This gives each player 7 matches each in the group phase. But to keep the game count down we make all group matches best of 1 rather than best of 3. The once back into the knockout phase games become best of 3 again.

For reference:
Double Elimination = 126 Matches (252-381 games)

Examples:

  1. Round Robin - 8 groups of 8 players, top 2 qualify from each group into double Elimination = Double Elimination = 254 Matches (284-317 games)

  2. Round Robin - 8 groups of 8 players, winner of each group goes into winner bracket, runner up into losers brackets of double elimination = 246 Matches (268-293 games)

  3. Round Robin - 8 groups of 8 players, top 2 qualify from each group into Single Elimination = 240 Matches (256-275 games)

Things of Note:

In all examples, the total number of matches has increased, but the total number of games can be kept significantly lower, even though theres slightly higher number of minimum games. Overrall depending on the format chosen from the examples, theres a high chance that the tournament will have significantly less matches whilst giving everony at least 7 games (matches) before being knocked out.


Finally if 4 players went through from each group of 8 rather than 2 you would end up with:

  1. Round Robin - 8 groups of 8 players, top 4 qualify from each group into double Elimination = Double Elimination = 286 Matches (352-417 games)

  2. Round Robin - 8 groups of 8 players, top 2 of each group goes into winner bracket, next 2 into losers brackets of double elimination = 270 Matches (316-365 games)

  3. Round Robin - 8 groups of 8 players, top 4 qualify from each group into Single Elimination = 256 Matches (288-323 games)

Things of Note:

-Whilst all examples excede the minumum number of games of that of a standard double elimination tournament, their maximum number of games are still comparable, especially examples 2 and 3 where maximum number of games are still lower than that of standard double elimination( in the case of 3, much lower)

-All players still have the minimum number of 7 games, aswell as half the group having a chance of making the knockout stages.


In conclusion, the standard double elimination format is not as good as it appears when compared to round robin. As proven through my examples, more matches and games can be given to each individual player whilst keeping the overall matches and games lower or at least comparable to that of standard double elimination tournament.

Using a round robin tournament could therefore reduce the length of a tournament aswell, depending on the format chosen. Not just from the examples above, but theres many round robin formats that can be used, 5, 6, 7 players can used in a group, however, I don’t reccommend going over 8, as that does then to increase the number of matches and games of groups by quite abit.

I am not saying people should stop using double elimination, as theres lots of variables that could mean that would be better. You have to account for things such as space, time, how many setups are avaliable, additional rules, such as tie breakers etc. Also its about what the players want. It wouldn’t be right to force them into a format no one is happy with, but when are players not happy with good value for money :wink: If you have resources necessary to dump double elimination and go with round robin, then I reccommend you give it a try and see how it works out.

Finally, I hope this little study opens up some possibilities for tournament organisers who feel that their only option is double elimination, and those who don’t know of possible superior formats that could be utilised. Anyway, this was probably a boring read to 99% of the people on here, so I’ll shut up now. Congrats to anyone who finished it.

Final note: My math isn’t as good as it used to be, so there could be some mistakes, in which case I am sorry and please correct me, but working outs must be given also. If you just post, thats wrong, or it shud be XXX, without explaining how you came to that number then I’ll simply ignore it.

The thing about round robin is that it takes too much time. And not everyone has the time to play tournaments that take too long. Also the anticipation between the two best players that are in different brackets will make the match that much better when it comes around.

Well… that?s how I feel anyways

Time is the biggest issue with your suggestion, unfortunately.

Sorry, but did you even read the OP. Some of the examples above show that round robin can be much quicker as theres less matches and games.

Don’t substitute quantity for quality.

Round robin option:

  1. You get to play an extremely small number of people.

OR

  1. You do it right, and it ends up taking fucking forever.

?

  1. Even if you lose all your matches, you still get to play more people than if you lose all your matches in double elimination (all 2 of them).

  2. Nope, round robin can prove extremely quick and already shown by my numerous examples, there can be far less matches and games to be played.


I don’t get it, it seems like people are just assuming round robin takes a long time, this is the very thing I am trying to obliterate.

If you use the same number of setups for both double elimination and a round robin format which yeilds more garunteed minimum matches per player whilst at the same time reducing the overal total games to be played, I don’t see how it can’t be quicker.

I have to say i hated double elimination, back when 3rd strike ranking battles here in the uk we did r3kos number 3 99% of the time and i really enjoyed that format.
Of course we didn’t have 60 plus people we normally got around 15 to 20 and we’d get done in an hour sometimes longer depending how many machines we had, but i remember the guy wanted to try double elimination, all i remember is that it took alot longer in fact so much longer that alot of us just didn’t care who won by the end of it, i actually remembering a couple of guys that were glad they lost

Funny enough my love for ranking battles died soon after that expirence

Your solution is hypothetical and while it might even be provable mathematically it would cause all types of problem when introduce the madness of real tournaments.

Having that many matches run smoothly and on time requires a more people STAYING PUT for a longer period of time

It also might run quicker on console but in arcade tournaments event mode isn’t always an option and the time it would take to get the machine back to where another match can start would be huge, over double elimination.

you’re giving people a minimum of 3 matches they already get 2 minimum in double elimination, All of this is being done just to add one match to the person who can’t beat anyone?

No.3 is how we we run tournaments in the UK and its been incredibly successful.

If theres 4 man groups, thats 6 matches, if people can’t hang around for 6 matches and play thier 3 group games, then they got problems.

We also use this system on arcade aswell. When you win your match you just stay on the machine, and play the next group game, which speeds things up even more.

If you feel that way about 3 matches, then whats the point of having double elimination at all then if your just giving weaker players another chance. Just have single elimination.

Interesting post. The one thing that seems odd is that if I understand your examples correctly, all of the round robin style fights happen in the pools. But all of the semis and finals are double-elim. If you were only going to do round robin for part of the tourney, it seems like it’d be better to do it for semis/finals. They did it this way for either X-Mania or Hyper Mania(I forget which…maybe both?) and it was fun to watch the top teams duke it out.

Also, I’m too lazy to do all the math, but it’d be interesting to see it’d look if you did round robin the whole way through the tournament, but in small groups. I imagine it in groups of 4, where only the winner of each group moves on. Like this:

64 players:

Pools: 16 groups of four - A1 ~ A16
Semis: 4 groups of four - B1 ~ B4
Finals: 1 group of four

Double elination isn’t it just to give weaker players another game its to make it more likely that you go out at the place you should. Random things happen in single elimination and having an another chance gives more stability to the results. The mere fact that someone who lost first round can come out of the losers bracket and beat the person who won the winners bracket TWICE shows that the best overall player doesn’t always win in single elimination.

I recently played a single-pool round robin tekken tourney, and it seemed like it took for ever, and there were only like 9 people in it. Of course that problem probably was with the number of people, getting people to stay and play their matches, etc. We had 2 consoles running it, but even so it still took at least a few hours playing 5/7 round, best 2 out of three matches. People kept wandering off, playing other games that they were competing in, going to the vending machines or to get food, or using the restroom, whatever.

People over here are A.D.D. as fuck.

The main drawback I saw is that it would be a bit complicated for the tournament organizers.

round robin seems to work in home tourneys where nobody really disappears in between matches.

Call me crazy, but I’m beginning to wonder how many tourneys you’ve personally been to.

Round robin just takes too long when you have a big group, especially at a major. Some people are playing in multiple tourney’s, so matches are held up until they finish. Also, people are in and out all day, which holds up even more time. As you mentioned, the event may also have too few tv’s, which hold up things further. Double elimination suits local and major tourney’s, and it gives everyone time to catch a break between matches. Round robin tourney’s can get extremely tiring, especially when a game like CVS2 is involved.

seems like r3ko has nothing to do in life lately

Am i the only one who actually read the whole thing? lol.

On paper it works out but it won’t happen on larger scales like the EVO tournament cuz when u have alotta ppl playing matches NEVER get done on time n that messes it up fro everyone i remmeber at EVOworlds07 a few planned tournaments had to be cutout cuz half the players who made it to semis couldn’t be found.

But you said

“you’re giving people a minimum of 3 matches they already get 2 minimum in double elimination, All of this is being done just to add one match to the person who can’t beat anyone?”

Now your saying it good to have an extra match, So you’ve left me abit confused.

Yes more players per group the longer it goes on.

4 per group = 6 matches
5 per group = 10 matches
6 per group = 15 matches
7 per group = 21 matches
8 per group = 28 matches
9 per group = 36 matches
and so on…

Thats why I recommend making all games best of 1 rather 3 when you have 6 or more people per group. Still get 5 games to prove your worth to get into the next round, where it can go back to double elimination.

I see starting off in round robin is a good way of cutting out the weaker players, whilst offering them more games, and chance to get put in a group with a very strong player, that they would never normally get a chance to, or be extremely luckly/unlucky (depending on how you look at it) to meet them in a double elimination. Then the stronger players can go back into the usual double elimination format. Its makes the tournament overrall have less games too, so its a win win.

Yeah, thats the main problem. But if you have the resources and staff, then why not. People get more games and its done quicker.

People do dissappear, but why? Players should stick by their setup if they know they have a match coming up soon. If you leave without telling the judge where your going, then you forfeit that matches you miss.

Let me think, in roughly the past year I’ve…

…played in about 13 hsf2 tournaments/ranking battles, give or take, my main accomplishments in HSF2 being 3rd at SVB back in January and 4th at SS in July (the 2 biggest tournaments of the year in the UK, SVB being the biggest since Absolution2004). Also sitting 2nd in the HSF2 ranking battles.

…ran 1 tournament (2on2 hsf2, total of 32 players) and 5 hsf2 ranking battles all by myself.

…been a judge at every single event in London since January, so I’ve been a judge in maybe 20-30 individual tournaments of many different games.

…taken care of and helped in seeding players for tournaments, and ran the Alpha 3 finals at SVB back in January aswell

Next year I have my own event planned too, which is top secret atm.

Also these arent like tournaments held round someones house, I am talking about proper events and tournaments held at a proper venue and rankingbattles being held in the best arcade for fighting games in the UK, maybe all of europe.

Answer your question?

Something I didn’t forsee was running multiple tournaments at the sametime, but the beauty of round robin is that in that case allowances can be made, if someone is currently playing a match in another tournament, you can do their match later, as it won’t necessarily hold up the tournament. You can just go on to the next match in the group.

If there is too few tvs for round robin then theres too few tvs for double elimination, as many round robin formats would take many less matches than double elimination tournament would take to complete.

Sorry, but it just bores to me write 1 sentence posts all the time, sometimes i feel the need to write lots of sentences.

Thanks for actually reading the entire post :smiley:

An event like Evo where hundreds of players enter a single tournament, does look daunting, but from what I’ve read about Evo, many tournament suffer from not having enough time, some even being best of 1, too many matches maybe? Maybe Round robin could be the answer. Maybe I might apply my formula to a 500 person tournament, which would be bigger than any turnout so far for an individual tournament if I am correct, and we will see what the difference is.