Dormammu Positioning and Theoretical Use

[Day1God]

Dormammu is one of the few characters i believe to be good at nearly any position. It is hard to truly say his best spot but i feel like his late game is slightly better then his initial game. The first thing to take into account is how Dormammu should be used and then we can come to a decision about where he should be placed.

From what ive seen Dormammu is not a highly mixup based character. This does not mean he has no mixups, but i believe he does not have a large variety and his mixups are not that difficult to block. In this post im mainly going to reference two dormammu’s who play completely different styles but are some of the best. I will start with the person i believe to have the best Dormammu and that is Filipino Champ. Now although F.Champ plays a phoenix team i believe even without phoenix he would play Dorm the say way. Champ relies mainly on keep away because of Dorm’s lack of mixup.

As a keep away character lets look at Dorm’s Pros and cons as a keep away character: (please feel free to input things i might have forgetten because i am not that good with Dormammu although i do main him.)

Pros:
The Flame carpet:
i would go as far as to say the best keep away tool in the game, maybe only second to trish’s traps, who i believe to be the best keep away character. Nothing can literally be done about it while its active except maybe a beam super.

Good projectiles:
Dorm’s go a vertical wall that can be done nothing about when you are high on the screen and when a carpet is down. As well as a good horizontal normal which causes wall bounce. Dark hole is a little more risky so i would usually refrain from using it.

Great Hypers:
Stalking flame is probably one of the best keep away supers in the game. again almost nothing can be done about it except to hit Dorm, but as we’ve discussed this isnt easy with a carpet down. Chaotic flames also comes out very quick ive used it several times to punish moves with like 8+ recovery.

Movement:
Dorm has 8 way dash, so he can tri jump back which is the fastest way to escape in the game save magneto’s flight dash cancels. once a carpet is down theres almost no way to chase him once hes backing up. he also has a teleport that can pretty much place him anywhere he would need to be if you wanted to run away or perform a quick mixup.

Spells:
Camp to store spells? yes. Spells deal great chip and can scare your opponent from doing random things. Personally i like eruption level 3 because it starts very fast and links to chaotic flame, simple easy damage and full screen. Ive seen f champ use the magma rain mainly for chip and the mixup opportunity.

Health: I almost forgot, Dorm can take a hit. hes got about 1mil health i believe so even if they get in once it will most likely not be enough.

Anti-air: I also almost forgot about his **AMAZING **anti-air. Probably one of the most reliable in the game. His c.m and S can be stop most moves and even eat projectiles.

Cons:
Flame Carpet: Although the carpet is broke when its out once it goes away dormammu is almost completely open. its not that hard to get in on him because hes pretty slow. and the carpet also takes a bit of time to lay down so if your not careful opponents will just wait it out and hit you with one mix up.

Size: Dorm is kinda big so alot of things you would think won’t hit you will so you should really be careful about spacing.

… theres not really alot of cons i can think of for using him as a keep away.

Now as a rush down character i will use EMP Masta CJ as an example. CJ is probably the only if not the best rushdown based Dorm’s ive seen. It definitely works but to a certain degree. Pros and cons time.

Pros:
Cross-up: Dorm’s super jump S is a great cross-up because its pretty ambiguous on its way down. he can also do it pretty fast so alot of people will be caught crouching.

Teleports: When people are in the corner it is sooooooo hard to know which teleport Dorm has done, between m teleport and h. H will never cross up but puts him exactly about you, and M always cross’s up but in the corner it looks like hes right above you. soooo sick.

Damage: Dorms combo’s do 600-700 depending on assists which is really good because he doesnt require alot of execution.

Tri-jump: Dorm can tri-jump overhead with ‘l’ from a normal jump which most characters can’t.

Cons:
Hit Confirming: The one thing i will say that turns me off to rush down Dorm is because even when you land that hit sometimes his c.m whiffs after c.l. I’ve tried all of his normals and Dorm must at least do a c.l - c.m to get a launch. I’m pretty sure it only happens on some characters while they are crouching but i know thats cost me dorms life many times so its probably many characters.

Teleports: although his teleports are good, without an assist they are pretty easy to air throw on reaction.

Tri-jump: his tri-jump l can only be linked to c.l and its actually got a strick timing.

Normals: all of dorms ground normals besides c.l are punishable on block so once your in a string its hard to make them safe especially since hit confirming is unreliable.

Final Words: I would say its far better to play Dorm as keep away, and F.Champ is definitely more successful then EMP Masta CJ. However, both can work. I feel that because its better to play keep away Dorm, his position is best as the 2nd character or the last. In a 1v1 fight Dorm can beat a majority of the cast by just keeping them away. But when hes on point it becomes much harder because their assist calls will create too much chaos. If you really want to play him on point you should play him with assists that help make his actions more safe, essentially basing the team around him. Then he can really utilize what little rushdown he has. If your going to play him 2nd i think that is also fine because you will most likely be DHC’ing him in and his hypers are good to either make a character full screen or deal good damage.

[Rockman85]

I play him mixed but I dont think he is that effective as a keep away character.

Look at Karsticle’s Dormamu guide. He has a lot of good stuff in there that addresses some of your concerns.

Use carpet flame at the end of a block string to make it safe. And chaos, I like chaos. It might have something to do witht he assist I use but I think Dorm has the upper hand. M and S nullify many projectiles and have a large hurtbox with a good amount of active frames.

[Karsticles]

From what ive seen Dormammu is not a highly mixup based character.

It depends on your conception of mixups. If you mean something like standing overheads or attacks canceled into highs from a low, no, he’s not. If you consider Mass Change cross-ups with assists, Dormammu’s ability to cross-up with j.H and j.S, and his j.L into c.L mix-up, his mixups are his strongest point. I rush most of my matches.

I will start with the person i believe to have the best Dormammu and that is Filipino Champ. Now although F.Champ plays a phoenix team i believe even without phoenix he would play Dorm the say way. Champ relies mainly on keep away because of Dorm’s lack of mixup.

He doesn’t play keepaway with Dormammu, though; he does everything, and it’s all matchup-based, like it should be. He Mass Changes to attack opponents all the time. The reason he doesn’t rush more is because Dormammu really needs an assist to help him rush (much like Wesker) hard, and he is playing Dormammu as an anchor with no X-Factor to lean on - it’s a difficult position, so he has to play a very cautious game.

The Flame carpet:

It depends on your opponent - Flame Carpet has a ton of counters. Most people just aren’t smart enough to know what they are.

Stalking flame is probably one of the best keep away supers in the game. again almost nothing can be done about it except to hit Dorm, but as we’ve discussed this isnt easy with a carpet down. Chaotic flames also comes out very quick ive used it several times to punish moves with like 8+ recovery.

Stalking Flare is not a “keep away” hyper. It’s a mix-up, safe tag, and chip-out hyper. Unless you have room to Mass Change, Stalking Flare isn’t going to be hitting anybody with a brain, and it deals less chip damage than Chaotic Flame. If you just want to chip your opponent out, Chaotic Flame is a better option.

Camp to store spells? yes. Spells deal great chip and can scare your opponent from doing random things. Personally i like eruption level 3 because it starts very fast and links to chaotic flame, simple easy damage and full screen. Ive seen f champ use the magma rain mainly for chip and the mixup opportunity.

3D0C is nice, but its shortcoming is that it deals the least damage/chip, and if it’s blocked, you don’t get anything from it. While I haven’t sat down and spoken with Champ, I imagine he prefers 1D2C for the same reason I do: significantly more chip/meter building, leads into a combo if it hits, and, most importantly, it provides you enough time to charge 2 Dark Spells. So, with 3D0C, yes, it’s potent and fast, but it’s also crap if you fail. 1D2C provides you with enough time to be just a step away from 1D2C. Slow characters particularly can’t do much against 1D2C spam, and it’s much safer than Purification because it covers 80% of the screen during its active frames.

Damage: Dorms combo’s do 600-700 depending on assists which is really good because he doesnt require alot of execution.

My own bnb is 750K+ with 1 meter, builds 2 meters. You can do more than this with other teams; he’s very dependent on his team.

Hit Confirming: The one thing i will say that turns me off to rush down Dorm is because even when you land that hit sometimes his c.m whiffs after c.l. I’ve tried all of his normals and Dorm must at least do a c.l - c.m to get a launch. I’m pretty sure it only happens on some characters while they are crouching but i know thats cost me dorms life many times so its probably many characters.

Yeah, this is a pain, but less characters dodge s.M than c.M, so that’s something. I have a list of all the characters in the game that c.M whiffs against. You can launch straight off of c.L, but of course s.S is punishable on block by most characters.

Teleports: although his teleports are good, without an assist they are pretty easy to air throw on reaction.

I strongly disagree with you here. This is not Dante; your opponent has to know it’s coming.

Tri-jump: his tri-jump l can only be linked to c.l and its actually got a strick timing.

I don’t see this as a con; it’s just part of the character. You would never list “Buktooth Loops take practice” as a con of Doom’s.

Normals: all of dorms ground normals besides c.l are punishable on block so once your in a string its hard to make them safe especially since hit confirming is unreliable.

You can cancel into Flame Carpet, but that’s not entirely satisfactory, is it? You won’t be able to combo off of Flame Carpet. Something I am working on right now is using my assists that CAN combo from Flame Carpet, and making this my normal block string:
j.S, c.L, Flame Carpet + Assist, go from there. It’s a pretty huge hit confirm window, but I’m sacrificing the ability to relaunch (since I used my other assist to approach already).

Final Words: I would say its far better to play Dorm as keep away

Nope. He’s matchup-dependent. You have to judge what your opponent can do and go from there. I would love to see Dormammu try and play keepaway against Wolverine + Akuma. It won’t happen.

I feel that because its better to play keep away Dorm, his position is best as the 2nd character or the last. In a 1v1 fight Dorm can beat a majority of the cast by just keeping them away. But when hes on point it becomes much harder because their assist calls will create too much chaos.

This doesn’t follow from your first statement, and your opponent’s second character still has an assist to call. Plus, in many fights, your opponent will trounce your first character, and that means Dormammu now has to make the comeback for you. If your team isn’t designed for Dormammu to be able to handle himself on point, he won’t do any better second unless you can outperform your opponent consistently.

[Day1God]

Thanks i learned alot from this post and i agree with alot of what you said i only have a few questions/disagreements.

It depends on your opponent - Flame Carpet has a ton of counters. Most people just aren’t smart enough to know what they are.

What are some of the counters to flame carpet so i can look out for them. im sure most are character specific but can you let me know a few?

Stalking Flare is not a “keep away” hyper. It’s a mix-up, safe tag, and chip-out hyper. Unless you have room to Mass Change, Stalking Flare isn’t going to be hitting anybody with a brain, and it deals less chip damage than Chaotic Flame. If you just want to chip your opponent out, Chaotic Flame is a better option.

Before you limit yourself to thinking that stalking flare is not a keep away hyper let me explain a strategy I’ve tried and which works. Since Dormammu is my second character assuming my first character died he comes in with about 2-3 bars of meter. What i usually do is make space by tri-jump backing, then begin the obstacle course. The first thing i do is lay down a carpet then ill attempt either purification or f+h, if either misses I send out a stalking flare to make my self safe. At full screen the only characters that can close the gap are those with teleports for which i just wait and block until the flare his them, but for people without teleports i begin charging spells. This by my definition is a keep away super as it gives me time to set up things at near full screen range. Even though it doesnt do as much chip as chaotic flames, it still does a decent amount and accomplishes my goal of being full screen. after the spells are charged and the character has finished blocking flare, its true you are right you get a mix up because they will just be coming off blocking your flare. This is when i attempt a mass change mix-up with an assist. Keep away by no means is only limited to staying full screen it simply implys that the gameplan is to keep the opponent away as much as possible while dealing chip damage. If i get a free opportunity for a mixup of course i will take it. If the mix up fails the spells i have charged then allow me to make my opponent block again and i proceed to tri-jump back and reset my setup.

3D0C is nice, but its shortcoming is that it deals the least damage/chip, and if it’s blocked, you don’t get anything from it. While I haven’t sat down and spoken with Champ, I imagine he prefers 1D2C for the same reason I do: significantly more chip/meter building, leads into a combo if it hits, and, most importantly, it provides you enough time to charge 2 Dark Spells. So, with 3D0C, yes, it’s potent and fast, but it’s also crap if you fail. 1D2C provides you with enough time to be just a step away from 1D2C. Slow characters particularly can’t do much against 1D2C spam, and it’s much safer than Purification because it covers 80% of the screen during its active frames.

I simply use stalking flare to make space and by time which is an essential keep away strategy. I like to use eruption lv3 because its also a scare tactic. meteor shower lv3 has long start up so people can see it coming. eruption is too fast to react to so if my opponent isnt already blocking i can guarantee a hit. I’ve used it many times to simply punish peoples move after push blocking. True if i random throw it out and they block it i missed an opportunity for more potential chip, but I simply throw out a stalking flare and begin again. i think both are useful in different situations and i actually use both. When my opponent is almost dead i usually start charging meteor shower.

My own bnb is 750K+ with 1 meter, builds 2 meters. You can do more than this with other teams; he’s very dependent on his team.

Whats your team? unfortunately mine can’t make that much damage except in the corner cuz i have doom plasma beam and sent drones. I don’t mind not dealing that much damage though cuz my team is mostly focused on Doom. But your definitely right Dorm is highly dependent on his team.

I strongly disagree with you here. This is not Dante; your opponent has to know it’s coming.

actually good dante’s will use hammer after teleport which you cannot throw in its start up and will get him by. But if you know the teleports coming you can grab him before it so dorms cross up teleport is more punishable.

You can cancel into Flame Carpet, but that’s not entirely satisfactory, is it? You won’t be able to combo off of Flame Carpet. Something I am working on right now is using my assists that CAN combo from Flame Carpet, and making this my normal block string:
j.S, c.L, Flame Carpet + Assist, go from there. It’s a pretty huge hit confirm window, but I’m sacrificing the ability to relaunch (since I used my other assist to approach already).

thats a really good idea. i never though of that. i will definitely try it thanks.

Nope. He’s matchup-dependent. You have to judge what your opponent can do and go from there. I would love to see Dormammu try and play keepaway against Wolverine + Akuma. It won’t happen.

yea your right. im still having a problem figuring out what to do against this. but Carpet actually keeps me relatively safe from wolverine. its the Akuma that fucks me up.

[Karsticles]

What are some of the counters to flame carpet so i can look out for them. im sure most are character specific but can you let me know a few?

Anything fast that travels can get him during the startup frames, Taskmaster and Cap’s Shield Skills/Charging Star. Akuma’s Tatsu. Berserker Slash. Tron’s j.S. All of Sentinel’s normals outside of the L series, and Rocket Punch. Any beam hyper on reaction. I’d say just about every character can make you feel the hurt if you place Flame Carpet constantly if they want to. Even a character like Haggar can pipe you while you’re setting it up, and it’s not a bad trade for him if he eats the carpet.

Stalking Flare stuff

The issue is that even if your opponent can’t counter it, he can block all of the hits and make it dissipate before you even have time to make two Dark Spell charges. This means you’re essentially using it for the chip, since if you had the room for a Dark Spell after Stalking Flare, you had it before, too. Stalking Flare’s chip is not amazing.

Yes, 3D0C is good for punishing.

Whats your team?

Dormammu (Dark Hole)/Skrull (Orbital Grudge)/Doom (Molecular Shield) right now.

actually good dante’s will use hammer after teleport which you cannot throw in its start up and will get him by. But if you know the teleports coming you can grab him before it so dorms cross up teleport is more punishable.

Air Trick has recovery frames; you can air throw Dante before The Hammer starts. In over 2500 matches with Dormammu, no one has ever air thrown one of my Mass Change Ms. Bigger characters like Sentinel can do it, but for most of the cast, it requires a backdash and a jump, which is more than you can say for any other character-relative teleport in the game.

[Day1God]

well obviously you can hit dormammu before the carpet comes out, i thought you meant there were moves that go through it completely.

As for the stalking flare, if feel like you are only thinking about mid range. in my 1000+ matches with dormammu once i tri-jump back after setting up and throwing a SF, ive always had time to charge two spells. Also i know im mainly using the stalking flare for chip that is essentially my strategy. To keep you out long enough for me to continuously keep you out. Although the chip isn’t very much, damage is damage and eventually i will hit you because as I’ve said once I’ve fully set up i call sentinel or Doom and get one free safe mix-up.

Thank you for some of your information but i think i understand Dormammu well enough now.

Btw i like your team, i tried it once before but i couldn’t make it work because i couldn’t use skrull, however i know hes a great character. i would love to see some of your matches or play you online one day. i hope your east coast~

[Karsticles]

well obviously you can hit dormammu before the carpet comes out, i thought you meant there were moves that go through it completely.

There are, and I listed several…

As for the stalking flare, if feel like you are only thinking about mid range. in my 1000+ matches with dormammu once i tri-jump back after setting up and throwing a SF, ive always had time to charge two spells.

Set the AI to use Stalking Flare, and dash into it with your point character and block - I realize that against the average opponent, they freak out, start to jump around to avoid the Stalking Flare, etc. And this is all very nice for Dormammu players, but it’s done out of ignorance on their end. You are entirely welcome to play the game how you like - I just don’t care to let inaccuracies pervade the forum. It’s a place people come to learn.

Btw i like your team, i tried it once before but i couldn’t make it work because i couldn’t use skrull, however i know hes a great character. i would love to see some of your matches or play you online one day. i hope your east coast~

I used Dormammu/Doom/Sentinel and variations for a good 1000 matches; I am very fond of the team, but recently dropped Sentinel because I found that Molecular Shield does what I needed Sentinel Force to do, and Sentinel is a terrible character that was holding my team back. I am east coast. Feel free to add me on PSN, but I am not fond of mirror matches - I like this game because of how much variety it adds. I have so many Dormammu users on my friends list - oi.

[Day1God]

hahaha, i also am here to learn my friend. Maybe you can’t charge two spells but i guarantee you i have no problem finding the time to charge them, i concede my point though.

As for sentinel being terrible, i completely disagree. I definitely agree he’s not amazing but he just takes time and effort to make him good, maybe things you can’t spare. i will add you on psn but ill have to let you know its me because its not my ps3. i hope to see you at some events. And my team is Doom on point, not second theres a big difference, so it wouldn’t be a mirror match.

[Karsticles]

To be clear, I mean that Sentinel is a terrible point character; yes, his assist is pretty awesome, as is his stomping power in XF3. I have ~2000 games with Sentinel, so I have certainly put the time in. There are some characters he simply stands no chance against, though.

[charlie88]

dorm technically doesnt need an assist to do over 750k damage he can do that in the corner with 1 meter

[DevilJin_01]

Well since I saw this thread I have a general question since I’m looking to pick up Dormammu specifically for Phoenix teams. When I’m using Dorm as an anchor I assume dark hole is his best assist for characters like say Dante and X-23 at the front? Is it useful for helping control firefights and setting up teleport mixes with Dante and what’s the general spacing you wanna be at before using it?

From there when I’m fighting Phoenix what are the general XF chip out strategies people use against her? I’ve seen stuff like waiting until she turns into Dark Phoenix when there’s a character or 2 still left and then killing her points and chipping her out with stalking flare, XF stalking flare to chaotic flame super. Is that viable to do off snap backs also or is it better to have her in the corner or generally how does that work?

If it ends up where for some reason you have to fight XF3 Dark Phoenix on point with Dorm in the back what generally do you have? I’ve seen some tricky stuff where Dorm can throw out a stalking flare super and then just mass change around the person left and right multiple times and if they guess the wrong way once the mass change makes contact with them they get hit. Which of course in XF3 would cause an instant death to DP. Is this viable agianst XF3 DP on point and what other general strats can you use that dont revolve around chicken blocking her XF3 down in a corner for 20 seconds?

[Karsticles]

dorm technically doesnt need an assist to do over 750k damage he can do that in the corner with 1 meter

Okay.

Well since I saw this thread I have a general question since I’m looking to pick up Dormammu specifically for Phoenix teams. When I’m using Dorm as an anchor I assume dark hole is his best assist for characters like say Dante and X-23 at the front? Is it useful for helping control firefights and setting up teleport mixes with Dante and what’s the general spacing you wanna be at before using it?

You want to call Dark Hole when your opponent is just out of attack range. Dark Hole is generally considered his best assist unless you really need anti-air coverage or want to create fun Liberation combos. It’s not particularly useful for controlling firefights because it comes out slow, so you need to use it to pre-emptively, not on reaction. It’s very good for teleport mix-ups with Dante. I think Dante players do Stinger -> Bold Cancel -> Air Trick, and they call Dark Hole right as Stinger hits.

From there when I’m fighting Phoenix what are the general XF chip out strategies people use against her? I’ve seen stuff like waiting until she turns into Dark Phoenix when there’s a character or 2 still left and then killing her points and chipping her out with stalking flare, XF stalking flare to chaotic flame super. Is that viable to do off snap backs also or is it better to have her in the corner or generally how does that work?

You can only chip Phoenix out if you kill normal Phoenix in the air and then can lock down Dark Phoenix with X-Factor chip damage before she lands. I’ve never witnessed a really strong setup for this, personally, but maybe you’ll be the first to figure it out.

If it ends up where for some reason you have to fight XF3 Dark Phoenix on point with Dorm in the back what generally do you have? I’ve seen some tricky stuff where Dorm can throw out a stalking flare super and then just mass change around the person left and right multiple times and if they guess the wrong way once the mass change makes contact with them they get hit. Which of course in XF3 would cause an instant death to DP. Is this viable agianst XF3 DP on point and what other general strats can you use that dont revolve around chicken blocking her XF3 down in a corner for 20 seconds?

Look at the matches in the general thread - 3D0C is awesome against Dark Phoenix. Otherwise, I like throwing a Stalking Flare to bait a teleport, and then X-Factor canceling and killing her. You honestly can’t do anything against Phoenix with Dormammu unless she’s already doing something or you have X-Factor, because she can beat most of your options with Teleport M, and rushing her is suicide. It’s pretty much a huge mindgame and whoever baits the other person into doing something unsafe wins.

One thing I like to do is have a character with a character-relative hyper behind Dormammu. I Chaotic Flame while she’s superjumping so I know it will whiff. 99% of DP players will Teleport M thinking they will punish you; then I DHC into something like Skrull’s Inferno.

[Mr.Dr]

I’ve never witnessed a really strong setup for this, personally, but maybe you’ll be the first to figure it out.

The only guaranteed method I’ve found is when the Phoenix players hard-tag Phoenix in to do some damage but mostly to get her to change into Dark Phoenix. Assuming you make her transform, the other player usually hard-tags another character in afterwards. If you can kill however many characters it takes to get to Phoenix and have Dorm in before Phoenix is called in, you can set up a trap from almost anywhere on the screen that won’t let her touch the ground. Obviously, this is easiest when you are as close to a wall as you can get without the game auto-correcting you in the opposite direction. My method, (and this is based purely on my opinion and my play style with Dorm) is to flame carpet, stalking flare, XF, stalking flare and then start leveling her with Purifications. Be careful to not get anxious and XF before the first stalking flare releases. This way, I have the flares out in time to start chipping at her while keeping her airborne, I have a flame carpet to maybe mix-up a reckless Phoenix player, and XF’ed Purifications are gnarly chip for how fast they are. Even if she AG’s, you just need to input the appropriate Purification. It’s a really simple method and doesn’t require any finesse or general sportsmanship. Not foolproof. But it definitely works in the right situation.

Also, does anyone make use of Dormammu’s mass change limit of four from the ground? I started playing around and rapidly inputting his mass changes and sometimes it can create some really wicked stuff. Especially if you make it a habit of throwing out a stalking flare every now and then. Curious as to see if anyone else does anything with his mass changes.

[GomuGomu]

I had one set up that I was experimenting with against I guy on my friends list, who uses a Phoenix team. It will kill her in the corner if you’re lucky enough to have the meteors hit properly lol, and you need to make sure Dorm is not spaced DIRECTLY in the corner otherwise all of the meteors won’t hit. It’s not really that good of a set up but it can work and it beats advancing guard. My strategy was to store hellfire during the round, build at least two and a half meters, get a combo which takes them to the corner and then snapback. By this point I’ll have two meters after the snap.

As soon as the snap is performed: Liberation (let him cast the spell fully to get all the meteors) xx stalking flare > X-factor > call jam session ~ stalking flare. You might need to try and throw a purification in there to get the last bit of damage.

[Karsticles]

Nice setup Gomu!