I’m glad to hear you had such a positive experience. Tbh, if ever I had trouble with a certain matchup or character, I’ve always asked the player or the community what I should do, and they’ve always helped out. I don’t think I’ve ever experienced a situation where nobody was willing to help in any and all ways that they can. I think that’s what largely keeps me coming back to the ST community. Their level of maturity and helpfulness is a prime example of how a community can really come together and build one another up as a player, instead of trying to keep secrets from each other while the Japanese continue to dominate (and notice how the Japanese community is also very helpful about sharing information). It’s not so much about winning your local major, as it is about growing as a community to fully dissect the ideal way to play the game, which requires strong communication skills. This is primarily why Japan is always ahead of America. Not only is their community more open to dialogue and conversation, but their players are located MUCH closer to each other, which helps produce the best players in the world.
I think 3s is a great game, but like you’ve mentioned, the community seems to be its own worst enemy. Imagine if you guys actually banded together to help one another, organize a wider variety of tournaments at the majors, and have that organization push to foster the growth of new players and to encourage them to show up to offline sessions. 3soe seems to have a pretty solid community still playing the game, but either they’re unwilling, unable, or have no idea, how to reach their local tournaments and casual sessions.
You hit the nail on the head. You have too many folks in the community who give no fucks and don’t want to help one another. There’s more American 3s players than there are Japanese players, but the player base is too immature to band together and openly figure things out and develop as a unit. Otherwise, we would be at their level – there’s no reason why only less than 10 players in the states can even duke it out with the Japanese other than lack of communication this community has in general. Sure Japan was ahead in ST at first, too, but we’re pretty even with Japan now for obvious reasons.
I wouldn’t even say people aren’t aware of where their locals are for this game. It’s the opposite. If you look back as far as '06 to '08, it was lack of effort from the community, and lackluster interest. The high level players stayed at the top, and anyone else coming into the fold had to climb the uphill battle alone. That’s still true now with guys like Karafail trying to snatch top 3 at any tournament he can enter just for that experience. 3s is a good game, yes, but so was CvS2, MvC 1, Darkstalkers, Guilty Gear, and Skullgirls. 3s can’t ride the popularity train forever, and the people who USED to play don’t want to anymore outside of special occasions. I play because I love it, but if talking to Joe yesterday brought about one thing, it was the realization that I’m definitely a player who wants to enjoy a game with an awesome community behind it. Maybe ST is the game for me? I don’t know.
Well, as far as American ST players go, we do have a few guys who can hang with the Japanese, but certainly not at the highest level. The biggest issue is that not only is ST the smallest of the fighting game communities that still hold tournaments, but we’re all living separate from each other. We have top players, but they all literally live on the 4 corners of the US, and really only get together once a year at Evo. The top Japanese players are playing with each on a weekly basis, and the vast majority of them have ONLY played ST and nothing else. It’s difficult to compete with that kind of convenience that the Japanese have.
Well, unless someone in the 3s community steps up and decides to spearhead the organization of 3s events and tournaments, there’s nothing that can be said. People on the forums will continue to declare that 3s is the greatest game ever made, while the tournaments and players begin to dwindle down. It’s pretty difficult to maintain a community for such an old game, especially in the video game industry, where games have an actual lifespan before most gamers move onto something else. It’s difficult to cultivate a hardcore scene for such an old video game with the ever-present problem of lack of interest by new players, and the difficulty of maintaining arcade-perfect setups to satisfy everyone.
Well, if ever you want to get into the ST scene and start joining tournaments, you’ve got plenty of guys to help you out. Don’s a fundamentally pretty sound player and is a pretty good ST player, and I’ll be helping to run tournaments as soon as possible.
I think I’ll try ST for a bit to see how I like it. I’ve dabbled in it before and played guys like Damdai, but nothing too serious.
Though you brought up a good point about how games work in the industry. Fighting games lucked out. Any other type of game would have died out long ago. For all the commitment you have to invest into just one fighting game, it’s all too easy to ignore the rest unless something peaks your interest. Needless to say, for the ones you want to move on to, lack of players or just poor online connections can really kill off some of the more promising titles. KOF 13 could have been much bigger, but the online part of it is really really bad, and the community suffered for it.
I suppose the best way to look at the older games now is to consider them your own personal pastime that you enjoy with friends. I want more, obviously, but it’s a bit unrealistic to expect when more hands have to be on deck to fuel the fire. It’s a bit weird for me to say all of this stuff since I support all the junk we normally talk about at Don’s and on this thread, but I’m slowly taking up Mike Z’s recent position on not really wanting to expand out to more people. If you look at SF2 when it originally came out, it wasn’t the most gentlemanly of activities back then like it is now. People grew up, of course, but that took awhile. That’s the stupid thing though: will it take years before the 3s community can finally say “Oh yeah, common sense – hurp derp”? I say all this simply based upon the fact that having more people involved will not always equal a stronger, better community, as it will – and normally does – create a fanatical community with momentary interest.
Fuck, Don, I even sound like a Libertarian in my post. I can see it now. lol
Actually, I’ve always recommended for new players NOT to play top-level killers. All it does is demoralize you and make you feel dumb for even trying. It takes a pretty special and rare person to actually go up against a killer and find a way to get MOTIVATED to improve at the game. I like doing baby steps. Having new players match up against other new or intermediate level players. Ideally you’ll play against someone who’s slightly better than you, but not so far out of reach that you feel like you’ll get never get on their level. It seems to work so far for the people I’ve helped level up in ST.
I’m a fan of aiming for probability and the law of averages. Having more members involved in the community, and thus higher tournament entrants at tourneys, doesn’t equate to having a better community. But what it does is expose our scene, culture, and game, to the rest of the world, once more spotlight gets shone upon us, which helps to attract more players, and bring in more money to attract top players, and more tournaments. Now, undoubtedly this will lead to an influx of idiots and man-children, but you will also undoubtedly reach talented, mature individuals, who have the ability and motivation to become not only a great player in their respective game, but hopefully a community leader to carry on the torch passed on by previous individuals. ST didn’t just survive all these years on the shoulders of a few people, it kept getting handed down to new members of the community who have stepped up to lead their community to continue holding events and training players. The most recent contender for ST would be the STRevival crew headed by Kuroppi. He wasn’t always in a leadership position, and I daresay, he didn’t get ramped up until maybe a year or two ago.
I hit the demoralizing point a few months back when I played Tenren in a few sets. That wasn’t fun. Against Damdai it was more or less curiosity since I knew nothing about the game aside from footsies. I definitely wouldn’t approach him now if I’m picking up ST, though. Did anyone help you get established in ST and make sense of the metagame, or did you just grind it out? Right now, I don’t even know which character fits me since there’s both the new and old versions. I’m also curious about the competition at large since I haven’t exactly kept up with it as much as the other games.
ST and 3S are like two very different languages: ST is like English and 3S is like Japanese. No similarities what so ever. So you are going to have to start from zero to be fluent in either one. There is no carry over. (Yes I’m contradicting myself from early post)
A good way of seeing how the general 3S community is today is to check the online play in 3SO. Why 3SO? Because it’s on a mainstream system with easy access. The online play determines the quantity and the quality of today’s 3S “community”.
Annoying thing about some people is that they’re in awe of 3S and say they would like to learn but they never want to learn or practice. I have many a time failed in trying to make new 3S players. They had all the resources too. Joystick, game, tutorial, etc. There are also guys who are skilled in other fighting games and respect 3S but are so intimated and afraid to touch it because they think it will bite.
No rant again but 3S is the game where you learn it at the school of hard knocks. Players today are just a different breed. ST players are different though because they want the pure game so they’re ok when it comes to not wanting to learn 3S because they too learned ST from the school of hard knocks and at the same time they’re the first generation to start it all. Also ST is a true no bullshit game. Pure unlike Kristen Stewart.
But when I see 3S I still see a very modern game that is as modern or even more than the new games like UMVC3 and AE which in my opinion are just a regression. IMO 3S is a great game and it’s being sadly overlooked by the world. It’s the pinnacle of 2D fighting.
I kind of got brought into the fold by experienced LA guys. Tbh, I got thrown in with the killers VERY quickly. Pretty much everyone in the LA area is a high-to-top level player who can place top8 in any ST major in the country, and there’s a few newbie/intermediate players. I’m sort of in that dead-zone, where I consider myself a high-intermediate player, and the next player above is just REALLY good, so I have to work extremely hard just to pull off higher tournament placings.
It helps that I recorded a LOT of my early matches, and other matches, on the youtube account in my signature. It really helped me to figure out what I was doing wrong, and I worked to correct that. Mostly I absorb a lot of knowledge from various ST matches on youtube throughout the years. I’ve kind of adopted what people label as an “old school” style of play, with new tricks thrown in. I take it as a compliment. I’ve actually had a few guys come up to me at Evo and ask me if I ever played at SHGL or SF2 in the 90s, so I guess I’m doing the OG style proud. It helps that I talk to Watson whenever I have trouble, and he always has excellent advice. I think I’ve sort of pattered my style after Watson, but it seems to be working, because I’m now able to take games off of veteran players who have been in the game for YEARS, because of it. I started playing competitively in October of 2011.
Here’s my favorite playlist. It’s footage from 2011 where Watson played a BUNCH of us in a row in one of our local tournaments. Now most of us were newbies at the time, but you can just see how methodically he just destroys us. That’s what impressed me the most. I’ve never ever played a guy like Watson where I felt absolutely helpless. He’s not even playing his scariest character, just his O.Guile. Whenever I lose to guys like DGV, Afro, or whatever, I can always pinpoint a mistake or two here and there either on my part or their part where I won or loss. When I played Watson back then, it felt like EVERYTHING I was doing, he could punish with ease, and that he’s beating me just because he knew so much more about the game than I did. It’s that old saying about how it felt like I was being put in a vice. I could lose slow, I can lose fast, but I WILL lose, and I’ve worked hard to not feel like that. I think it’s why I play O.Guile now, as an homage to Watson.
So I think a combination of playing the game, asking for advice, analysing your own matches, and watching expert videos on youtube, can help contribute to your improvement in ST. ST is similar in 3s in that it heavily rewards knowledge of the game. Knowing which pokes beat what, and which anti-airs are most effective, can completely turn a match around. I tell my girlfriend that ST is all about having a variety of tools on your tool belt. The more “tools” you know you have access to and can perform in a matchup, the more it changes how you use your character and how well you do against certain characters. Knowledge + execution + reaction = wins.
As for characters, I say try every character once. I can help you go through the roster and show you a quick trick or two. I found that if new players just learn ONE powerful trick in a game, and use it to win, they start to gain more motivation to use that character. The beauty of ST is that no matter what your strengths or weaknesses or playstyle preference you have, there is a character for you. Each character has a completely unique feel and playstyle. It’s really true what they say: you don’t choose a character, a character chooses you.
You have good strategy and reactions but poor execution? Dhalsim. You like a strong ground game with one-touch kill combos and ambiguous cross-ups? Bison. You like having a strong defense character, that demands a strong sense of momentum shift? Honda. Want a defensive powerful with a good fireball? Guile. How about a pure rushdown character that has hit confirm combos? Balrog. Do you like a character with a giant bag of tricks and powerful mixups? Blanka. Do you like to uppercut a lot? Ken or O.Ken. Do you just want to throw fireballs, sweep anti-airs, and uppercuts? Sagat. etc etc etc
If you’re really looking into getting into ST it’s nothing like 3S.
When you think about SF2 it really is the video game equivalent of a Street Fight. The reason is because getting in a real street fight is fast just like ST. High damage and quick knockout. It’s not like 3S where it’s methodical and flashy. ST is like a mugging. Everything happpens so fast you don’t know what hit you. That’s why people get so salty when they play that game. You get punked bad if you lose. You don’t need to taunt. The message is clear when you get beat down. Just like in a real fight. 3S is more like a prized fight where there are rules and the art and technique is praised as much as who wins the fight. But ST is just dirty. Players with delicate sensibilities can get turned off by it quick. And the skill gap of a seasoned player losing to a novice players is way more narrow than 3S. A novice Blanka has a really good chance of beating a season Ryu just because of the matchup and the easy usability of Blanka.
I swear I think I just read a post of yours claiming how similar it is, lol.
Fairly accurate comparison of 3s to ST. Actually there are a few flashy characters ,but not on the level of 3s. There are some pretty interesting ambiguous cross-ups and cross-downs that occur in ST, but it’s fairly rare unless you know a lot about the game, but it’s pretty awesome when it happens. Depending on the matchup, ST matches is usually a control vs. rushdown type, zoning vs. zoning, a slugfest, or a turtlefest.
But at the same time, ST can be a pretty cheap that you can learn real quick at a basic level. Once I taught millertime about how powerful Blanka’s tick throws or, or Honda’s ability to store and negative edge his ochio, she got really excited. These are fairly simple techniques that each character can use, but you can use them to win VERY quickly against even a high-skilled opponent. Or even Honda’s knee-bash loop against Guile. I can outplay her 80 seconds of the round in Guile vs. Honda, but once she grabs me ONCE in her knee-bash loop, and as long as he execution and reactions are on point, I am literally dead. It doesn’t matter if it’s me, or one of the other better Guiles she’s playing, she can destroy a Guile in seconds with simple strategies if she’s able to land ONE critical throw to end the round. It forces me to be on point.
But I think that’s kind of the simplistic beauty of ST. It forces you pay attention to every move your opponent makes, all of them. The whiffs, their movement, their life lead, their super meter, the clock, all of it has a lot more importance than in newer games, because even a single small mistake could lead to a loss. It forces you to play on-point the entire 99 seconds, with very few breaks in between where you can take a breath.
But you are right. A mediocre Blanka can beat up a high-level Ryu at least one round or a game in awhile. If Blanka can capitalize on his knockdown and ambiguous cross-ups and mixups, he can destroy anybody. I think that’s the point of him though. He’s a character who has a giant bag of tricks in his arsenal, which equates to powerful mix-ups if you can be put in a situation where you can use them, and he can end rounds QUICK. Just look at Komoda’s Blanka in ST on youtube. It’s like he’s playing a different version of Blanka that makes him seem top-tier. Blanka is largely considered a low tiered character, but Komoda makes him look high-tier with his masterful command of his character. It really makes you admire how far talented character-loyalists can make it in competitive ST with seemingly “bad” characters.
In the world of shotos, strategy, and zoning, Mattsun plays an extremely aggressive and mix-up based Ken. He’s simplied the game down to “I’m going to uppercut, or throw, you figure out the rest.” It almost doesn’t matter which character he’s playing against, lol.
Oh, and he has a cr.short, cr.short hit confirm into super, much like in 3s, if that interests you guys. It’s MUCH more difficult to pull off, but it’s possible.
Lol I know. But because I like to indulge in the gray area if, like me, you played both ST and 3S your whole life you can only see the similarities over time but probably only in the shotos. Everyone else it’s a whole different ball park. Hugo and Zangief are similar like Guile and Remy but that’s probably it. 3S Chun is different than ST Chun by a mile.
But yes they are two completely different games over all.
Hugo and Gief are very similar. Both have tools to get around the fireball game and prevent getting zoned, and both revolve around a strong use of the ground game and how to setup for the SPD. Guile and Remy play similar, but their effectiveness varies. The parry still hurts Remy’s fireball game, even if you can fire it as fast as a tiger shot, and he’s given better tools on the ground to compensate.
Both 3s Chun and ST chun are skanks. Holy shit, Capcom gave them everything.
Ryu, Ken, Guile/Remy are the same IMO. They’re just adjusted for the 3S parry system if that makes sense lol. Adjusted for inflation as I call it lol.
In other words if you put Remy in ST he would be as effective as Guile. I’m tempted to say that’s he might be more effective but I respect Guile too much and say they’re the same. But yes Remy is Guile.
Adjusted for the parry system is a pretty accurate way to describe it. Although for me, Ryu in ST relies much more on the fireball game than 3s Ryu, but both characters have pretty high damage potential. Also, the cross-up game for Ryu and Ken are extremely important in ST, especially Ken, since his cross-up is truly ambiguous if done properly. Both versions of Ken play very similar, in that both rely on a strong ground game and close game mixups to do the damage. I think Ken’s knee-bash is a definite game changer in ST, which has more mixup potential than 3s ken.
Remy in ST would probably be more effective, if he was still able to charge partition. If not, then yeah, he’s pretty much Guile. Same access to sonic boom and flashkick, but have great range on their low pokes, except Remy has a pretty awesome overhead dash kick thing that I wish Guile had. Remy’s has more range.
It’s weird Guile was so dominant in the SF2 series but when air blocking came around in the Alpha Series he lost his dominance yet the shotos still retained theirs. You couldn’t air block shoryukens the way you could air block flash kicks.
I sense a Capcom conspiracy to nerf Guile characters and to buff shotos and Chun Li lol. Because if the air blocking physics applies to Guile/Charlie/Nash it should also apply to shotos. But it didn’t since you can anti air with shoryukens easy even though there’s airblocking.
Capcom has a history of nerfing any characters were seemingly over-powered. Guile at WW was too ridiculous, so they nerfed him with each iteration until they got to ST Guile, which is considered the “core” tier of ST. Very solid, is able to do well in his matchups, but generally gets wrecked by the top tiers. That, and the newer style of games that came afterward were suited for a more offensive and rushdown type of gameplay, which negated Guile’s ability to zone.
If I remember correctly, you could actually air block uppercuts in Alpha. I think it may have just been A1 or A2, not so sure about A3. This is largely why people anti-aired in that game with ground normals, like cr.fierce. Shit, I don’t know anymore, I could’ve swore I’ve seen footage of people air blocking uppercuts as long as they didn’t press a button. I think this is why Daigo originally got the name “ume-shoryu”, since he was able to very accurately psychic-DP a person’s attack, even in a game with so many block options like Alpha.
Air blocking is dumb in a SF game, there, I said it. Call me crazy, but I personally think 3s would be better if you couldn’t parry fireballs and you couldn’t air parry, obviously changes would need to be made to Denjin-Ryu, but yeah, I guess that’s just the ST player in me talking.
I think generally, shotos have either been high tier or top tier. I think this is more due to their perfect design than anything else. They’ve the ideal “all around” character, with no great strengths, and yet no glaring weakness. I think this is why the OGs tend to play Ryu, since he has the ability to win all of his matchups, he makes for consistent wins. This seems to be proven by the sheer number of Ryus who win tournaments in ST, despite his status as the 6th-ish best character in the game.
I honestly think Guile is better now in ST. Especially the choice between Old and New. Old Guile still has the fundamentals of the past Guiles. He’s actually more refined. The lack of charge and recovery time in the sonic boom and the flash kick hits cleaner. Guile’s flash kick could go over fireballs much cleaner.
I think he’s better designed, and has a bit more interesting options. I absolutely love O.Guile. Playing him reminds me of playing HF. People have been telling me for awhile now that I’d be doing a lot better if I picked N.Guile, but O.Guile just fits my lameness so much better, lol. I kind of wish O.Guile’s cr.forward had better priority, but I’ll take one minor weakness in my character.
Are you talking about using a flash kick to go over a sonic boom? Or to punish the other character for doing it too closely? Using flash kicks to go over sonic booms is really only used against Sagats. Punishing a character for doing a bad fireball is pretty difficult. The only case where I’ve seen that technique being used fairly often would be doing a kara-flash kick against Dhalsim. This is because the startup on his fireball takes awhile, which gives you more time to react to and punish the fireball, as well as the fact that he ends his body forward almost as much as Ryu when he throws it out.
Guile is still an awesome character. Hell, I play him seriously in tournaments depending on the matchup and player. But he does get tore up pretty bad by the top tiers.