high low, ambi cross ups, ambi high low, frame traps galore. take your pick.
Guy vs Sagat is a tough fight, but not impossible by any means. I get to play against a really good Guy(the character) and here is what I learned in the match.
As Dr.Uppercut mentioned, watch out for his Ambiguous Cross up’s, all you have too do is find out the jump-distances and scenario’s in training mode to familiarize yourself with it.
Guy has a TON of frame traps that can blow up opponents, worst of all is that virtually all of his bnb push the characters closer to the corner. Keep in mind that Guy’s cr.lk comes out in 3 frames in AE, it makes it far easier for him to hit confirm of things.
Guy has a Safe jump set up after his forward throw(triple knee) be weary of it.
Don’t rely to heavily on Tiger Knee’s, know when to use them, guy can easily slide underneath them.
Guy’s backdash is AMAZING, and it’s his main tool to escape when he doesn’t have meter, this is punished very well by st.hp, it’s actually quite difficult to punish it with other normals consistently in my opinion, it even makes TU whiff, you have to kara it.
A blocked Ex Tatsu can be punished with a full ultra 1 on block, it’s the best possible punish in this match and in that situation, that raw ultra damage. Also Keep in mind that Ex tatsu comes out in 4 frames and it is considerably faster than Guy’s other Tatsu’s so be careful with your safe jump set-ups.
Guy’s slide(cr.hk version) can be safe on block if spaced well, do not fall for this trap. I highly suggest going into training mode and learning the distance(s) it is safe and unsafe. Most guys(the Character) will back dash after or try to continue to apply pressure, so do not throw out TU’s.
None of guys Power Bomb air bushin throws will get Sagat if he is crouching, remember that, you can also block his elbow low because it does not hit over head. I would not rely on TU as your main source of AA in this match unless you know 100% you can land it, Guy has far too many baits for it. St.hk and CLOSE.st mp do fairly well against him.
The Good thing about this match up is that you can afford to make mistakes, Guy’s combos, although effective, can be neutralized by One Sagat combo(due to damage). Just keep in mind that if you catch this guy once or twice it could be lights out. I wouldn’t recommend approaching this match as a zoning fight, I think you have to approach it as a Ryu type of style which is a balance of rushdown and zoning. The Zoning will force guy to the air eventually, and the rush down will keep him locked down. I think it’s a really tough match for Sagat if you just stick to zoning, I think it’s a lot closer when you combine the rushdown.
Slow high tiger shots, very good from the right distances.
Thanks bro
Also if you have trouble with ex flip on your wake up all you have to do is backdash. Learned that bthe hard way.
arcadia,
so now i need to show my " godly zoning " and " godly play " with videos to prove that the match up is 5-5? hahaha what the fuck, but unfortunately i dont have vids, maybe next majors in norcal, if latif or krone shows up, ill money match again, and this time get it on video
and the same guy questioning me that doesn’t even know a very simple match up like DeeJay (6-4 sagat favor) hahahaha that explains why, you just simply dont understand viper lol and maybe your guys are looking to blame the match up " hard for sagat " due to lack of understanding hahaha
i already posted enough reason why its 5-5 match up, im not gonna keep wasting my time
sanford say its 5-5 match up
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I COULD see it as even because if you don’t play orthodox and you keep moving and throw a few shots to mess up her rhythm and make sure you make it hard for her on wake-up then yes you can fuck her up pretty badly, but the risk/reward ratio is something that’s very hard for me to ignore. *shrug
lol if that is your reply to the match up by showing a sanford kelly match , i’ll have to just ignore you.
look at how he won for the most part. some lucky reads and viper fucking up a lot. You want to use this as a prime example of how the match up is played? sanford takes so many risks random kara reads. OK YES IT WORKED. but that is not a working strategy against the viper match up.
flash missed so mnay big punish opportunities, however he still effectively closed the distance on sagat neutralizing his zoning game. Flash made ALOT of execution errors, if you didn’t see that you are blinded. I don’t care what japan says about the match up because frankly, as the japanese admit themselves, no one plays her. many ppl regard the US to have the strongest vipers around.
frankly, this video did not change any notion of how the match up works. Viper gets around fireballs, and sagat needs to take some risks to prevent her from completely overwhelming him. Sagat has some offensive options but the risk/reward ratio is still not on his side for the most part.
although i can’t really comment on 2012, in AE viper had certain advantages that made the match up difficult.
setups that effectively forced you to guess, and unable to uppercut out of. massive damage normally and a comeback potential that rival and dare i say surpasses sagats. capable of fighting the footsie range and effectively shutting down the zoning game.
Enough of your nonsense.
wow, reading your post just makes me go " what the fuck is this kid serious "
i just showed that video, to show example of another player claiming the match up is even 5-5, and can you tell me exactly when the hell did i say thats how the match up should be played?
since we can all agree, sagat dominates viper in the ground game, as character wise ( if your getting beat in the ground game vs viper, then you should just STFU )
so i take it that when you said viper neutralizing sagat zoning game, shes going by AIR to get in?
i guess super jumping toward sagat, normal jumping in, or toward instant burnkick, HAS NO RISK COMING IN? AND GETS IN FOR FREE? hahaha
maybe you should “google” sagats great anti air tools against her, high step kick, kara/normal-tigeruppercut, st,HK (god st.hk kills viper)
hell, you can even air to air her with jump in or jump back HP, all her air option can easily be AA,
but with all that said of course shes gonna eventually get in thats why its a close match up, if sagat can fully zone her out then it would be heavily in sagats favor,
sagats game is to zone her out, once he gets a knockdown, you can either get in a better position to zone some more or apply pressure, oh yes sagat can apply great pressure on viper, and force to make some risky reads too,
vipers game is to maul your ass to death, as she can not beat you in full screen, again if your losing that part then i dont know what to say, other than you just plainly suck
she has to " get in " to be effective on the match up, she has great tools to get in on sagat and has even greater tool to stay in, but sagat also has a great tools to get her off, and this why its even 5-5 match, her bk mix up are NOT UNBLOCKABLE, blocking can get you very very far on this match up, and its prolly the most important tool on this match up is to learn how to block bk mix up, then again blocking is key to winning on all match up
and yes i do a agree viper does have better comeback factor, shes has more damaging shit
but sagats comeback factor is also very very strong, and has lots of health to deal with her bullshits
" random " maybe to you, like every different match up, requires different approach how to be effective with sagat, and viper is def not your typical simple match up, and yo almost have to look random at times, its kinda funny a player that greatly better than you, and you call him random lol
" unable to uppercut " what the fuck… lol maybe instead of relying on random out a uppercut, instead learn to block instead
nonsense? hahaha okay, says by the kid you can even figure out a simple, DeeJay match up thats heavily on sagats favor,
hahaha are you fucking serious a DEEJAY? LOLz
if you wanna see me play? well come to the next norcal major, ill gladly you show few things
anyways im done discussing this with you, i already felt like i wasted enough time, trying to explain something who just dont understand
For the record she does have unblockables on Sagat. Alot of vortex chars do. Result of the combat engine really.
Carry on.
care to elaborate on this so called unblockable bk on sagat? that is clearly easy to time, and easy to set up example like akumas easy forward throw on the cornered ryu ( which is brainless btw )
I didn’t say they were easy I just said she does have them.
*shrug
id like to see it done on sagat, elaborate
Sitting here with popcorn and koolaid observing the elord and DSS discussions also…
you showed a video of a sagat player beating a viper player. CLAP CLAP. that speaks nothing to the match up
“sagats game is to zone her out”
yes and she shits on that. that is why its bad.
" she has great tools to get in on sagat and has even greater tool to stay in, "
clap clap.
“” random " maybe to you"
yes it is random. there is no other reason to do the things he did other than on reads. they were not reactions.
so what your’e saying is.
Viper has good ways of getting in on sagat even though sagat’s game is to keep her out.
Viper does more damage and has a higher comeback factor
Sagat needs to block a lot in this match
Sagat has good anti airs, but viper has ways to either bait or completely avoid them…
therefore the match up is even. i am proud of your logic.
" then again blocking is key to winning on all match up"
L2b is such good advice! if we could block everything there would be no such thing as a bad match up!
lol how old are you? You have the reasoning of a middle schooler.
Here’s the thing. if we look at the risks and rewards of both characters we can draw a decent conclusion. In ae, Viper risk/reward was much greater. fundamentally if we take in consideration that we’re going to make a similar amount of good reads in a match, the one with the greater damage output is going to win out. obviously then you take life into consideration etc.
viper has the offensive advantage, damage advantage, and comeback advantage. I would even argue she even has the defensive advantage. burn kick mixups are in general very safe. a good read on your part could lead to say 200- 250 dmg. a bad read on your part could lead up to 350+ dmg. bad Tiger shot could lead to same thing. Having a safe offensive means the defending player has to guess more meaning in the long run he’s going to lose out. It’s simple as that.
Why did you show a video of sanford beating a viper player? is it to show a gamewinning strategy? or just to show that sagat can win? don’t be daft.
If Flash had finished all his punishes and capitalized on his hitconfirms this story would be completely different. And on the other, Sanford taking some EXTREMELY risky reads to take the offense is not in my opinion a consistent strategy.
Look DSS, no one is saying this match up is impossible. But it has all the usual signs of a bad match up. In 2012, it probably will be even since she lost quite a bit of damage.
you keep piping on about vipers risk/reward being better than sagat, but sagat doesn’t exactly have to take many risks against viper since she is the one who has to get in on him.
DSS already agreed that she has the tools to get in on Sagat. a well placed instant burn kick can get right over fireballs. low TK can go under high fireballs. always have the simple jump. good vipers can use seismos to move sagat even. Surely you aren’t suggesting that viper has a hard time getting in on sagat?
Bitch can cause earthquakes with hands.
You can’t beat that.
guile can slice the air so fast his arms cause sonic booms.
Or perhaps sagat thrusts his arms so fast that the friction causes the air to ignite?
damn your trully looking at this match up one sided, everyone has said that viper doesn’t have a great wake up, so with that said, what the fuck you think is the smart decision for sagat do when she gets knocked down?
again you fail to read my entire post, and again looking at it one sided
let me quote my self
"since we can all agree, sagat dominates viper in the ground game, as character wise ( if your getting beat in the ground game vs viper, then you should just STFU )
so i take it that when you said viper neutralizing sagat zoning game, shes going by AIR to get in?
i guess super jumping toward sagat, normal jumping in, or toward instant burnkick, HAS NO RISK COMING IN? AND GETS IN FOR FREE? hahaha
maybe you should “google” sagats great anti air tools against her, high step kick, kara/normal-tigeruppercut, st,HK (god st.hk kills viper)
hell, you can even air to air her with jump in or jump back HP, all her air option can easily be AA,
but with all that said of course shes gonna eventually get in thats why its a close match up, if sagat can fully zone her out then it would be heavily in sagats favor,
sagats game is to zone her out, once he gets a knockdown, you can either get in a better position to zone some more or apply pressure, oh yes sagat can apply great pressure on viper, and force to make some risky reads too "
read that carefully
since sagat can dominate viper in the ground game, what the fuck do you think a vipers going to do?
yes i said she has great tools to get in, instant toward bk, normal jump in, and super jump in,
but you fail to look at why what sagats advantage is at, HE HAS EVEN GREATER TOOL TO KEEP HER OUT, normal/kara tiger uppercut, standing HK, highstep kick, tiger knees, high tiger shots, low tiger shots, better air to air normal
" bait "? WHAT THE FUCK? are you fucking serious, did you have alot of crack or just a lil bit of crack when you typed your reply?
your talking like sagat cant do the same to bait her to jump ins, instant toward bk, super jump in, ( and yes even the fastest toward instant bk is not hard to uppercut off reaction ) if you happen to play a player that likes to do this, a few focus attack charge from mid screen can scare the living daylights out of a viper player that likes to toward instant bk your tigershots,
ask your self this, which is more risky?
walking toward your opponent or jumping in on your opponent?
if you can answer that, hopefully you can finally understand
oh my fucking god, hahahaha i cant even believe this,
first you talk about not being able to uppercut like a fucking moron relying everything on a uppercut,
now your going question that blocking is not important?,
so are you saying that, with CPU you like " block all ability " wont help you win game?
im trying to understand your point of view, and the more i understand your point of view, the dumber i feel,
look at my damn profile, and i have been in competitive level on fighting game since i was 2003 and yes i placed top 16 on a major, which means nothing, but a failure
so what about you kid
how old are you? have done anything other than get bodied by random DJ player and money match
sagat has tons of health, to combat her high damage output,
another question, who the fuck is taking the risk?
the one attacking or the one defending?
bk are generally safe, but thats when your skill of knowing the match up takes over by blocking it the right way,
blocking burn kicks mix up bs is all skill dependent,
the main reason why shes mauling people is her damn burn kick mix up, but what if you can block them all at a 100% rate, what the fuck does she have left?
why didnt you read my god damn post again
"*** i just showed that video, to show example of another player claiming the match up is even 5-5, and can you tell me exactly when the hell did i say thats how the match up should be played?*** "
yes i did agree she does have great tools to get in, but you fail to understand that sagat has even greater tool to keep her out, and keep her out
a good sagat can easily tiger uppercut on reaction the fastest toward instant burnkick, even standing HK, and shit, you can even focus if you like
a good sagat cant be moved by seismo pressure, do you even know whats the recovery on a whiff non ex siesmo? its really fucking bad
low tk going under fireball? are fucking serious, hit em with a fucking low tiger shot,
Surely you aren’t suggesting that viper has a hard time getting in on sagat? i just wasted 20 minutes of my time fuck
since i talked about my pass experience on this match up, by playing countless of vipers,
can elaborate on your pass experience on this match up
I mean at leslie he beat krone because he knew how top block her mixups. I still haven troible with viper but I haven’t played the match that often