this is dumbest thing I’ve read in this thread, which is impressive considering how this thread played out. good work.
For me, dizzy is just one more momentum mechanic. The idea is rewarding someone that have played well (and scored a hit) with something more than damange…the opportunity to get a advatage situation. Guard meter, chip damange, corner carries, okizemes, etc are the same.
Normaly, you don’t want this momentum escalating to “first one to hit always win”, and you don’t want it to be weak enought to not be noticed. It have to be balanced around, and it can be really hard. There’s numerous examples of games were dizzy states are so hard to inflict that it never happen, and games were there’s combos that guarantee dizzy into touch of dooms.
My personal opinion is: it can be way too work to balance a dizzy mechanic. It can add one more layer to the gameplay…if there’s some graphic indication of the dizzy in the screen. If someone is close to fall in dizzy state in 3s, both him and the opponent will be pressed to play in a different way. The same as someone that is close to have his guard meter breaked, or someone that can be killed by chip damange in the next hit.
I don’t see this situation as “unfair” if it is the consequence of playing “wrong” in the long run of a match…but it’s perfectly aceptable for people to say it’s “unfair” to be hitted by something that guarantee 100% dizzy/guard break/“cheese”.
I myself use SA3 Ryu in 3s…and yeah, he can 100% stun with a full charged denjin. But to get a denjin setup, i have to build meter, corner carry, get a hard knockdown. And even then, the opponent can parry the denjin. Makoto do have a combo that guarantee dizzy, around a karakusa, abare tosanami and double fukiage. But the game is from 99, those combos were finded around 2010 (it taked even more time to find variations to work in different characters).
I like stun, particularly in 3rd Strike. The visible meter helps add to the pressure and it’s like blood in the water for the aggressor, which can actually work in favor of the one on the back pedal to catch a careless mistake in an attempt to finish off their stun meter. Some characters really jack up the stun, like Necro or Ibuki. The only time I would say stun is out of control is Makoto and her touch of death. But the level of play required to pull that off 100% means they are likely fighting someone of equal skill that knows to watch out for that set up. That one is still painful to watch fully executed though…
Overall, I’ve never had a problem with stun in fighting games.
people are talking a lot about guard meter…well
In older kofs, the guard meter is hidden. But your character flashes red when it’s close to be breaked. In XIII, it’s on the screen, but mr. karate can take half of it away with one ex, takuma can take all of it with one ex. Outside of those 2, it’s pretty much ok i guess…as you can do things from blockstun, and there’s a huge prorate in how much damange to this meter a string inflict.
In sf alpha3, garou motw and melty blood, if you “tap” back in the moment of impact instead of holding back, you actually recover guard meter. It is not easy, as you need to get not only crossups/ high lows right, but the timing. But it’s very viable to do this in super projectyles that hits mid, as then you only need to get the timing right.
And then, there’s guilty gear. There, the guard meter is never crushed. You can block forever, but the less guard meter you have, the more damange you take when your opponent actually get you.
It’s not hard to analogize some SF design concept in a totally different game to make it sound strange. Football is super different from SF so there’s no reason you should expect that imposing the design concepts of SF on football would make sense and work well.
stun has been done all sorts of ways. i think without having a visible meter it’s pretty shitty (lololololol sf4 shit game lololol).
with a meter though it makes for really interesting decisions.
if you don’t like stun you’re just kind of a pussy.
Complete organic PVP the more systems you put in place the more barriers you put up
lol oh please.
what do you play then? do you play even.
VF which by means 9/10x I don’t get to play
otherwise I’m where the competition is
So…barebones basics?
Mike Z coming mostly from a Marvel/Anime background. In those games, I agree that dizzy is not needed. In a slower paced game like Street Fighter, I think it’s just fine. Not like, random ST levels of dizzy where sometimes randomly 3 hits will stun you, but in SF4 where the matches can already drag on, that reward for pushing a match forward is almost needed.
p.s. I still enjoy ST guys chill out random dizzy values were still dumb
EDIT: obviously it’ll never happen because Capcom is fuckin horrible at teaching new players despite their PR nonsense about welcoming them, but in a perfect world where they WEREN’T horrible at tutorials, you could explain to new players how dizzy works, when you’re in danger of being dizzied (if you insist on keeping it a hidden value) and WHY it’s important. We see on stream all the time, commentators are reasonably sure of when someone is at risk to be dizzied, but there’s no in game confirmation of that other than them having played SF games for life and keeping track in their head.
There’s a number of ways it could be handled more elegantly by another fighting game developer besides Capcom, but the strategic value and tension that it creates are still valuable to the game. It can help to create big spectator moments and also assist in comebacks more naturally than something like Ultras.
Thank you. I’m not alone
Idk, I feel the arguments that stun is supposed to punish. I mean, it might just be online, but when people will mash 200x on wakeup without regard to health or meter, stun can act as a sort of visible wake up call.
Plus it means things like this can happen.
I thought ALL moves when used as a reversal break armor…how did dud’s counter beat it? Counters lose to AB…I’m lost.
i got the explanation right here
Ugh…nerf Juri’s counter to make it next to almost pointless but stealth buff dud’s? Ugh…pure and utter garbage…
as if juri needs anything other than nerfs in her life at this point
Pretty sure there’s no stun in SFXT, that’s a Capcom fighter, a shitty one though.
They didn’t put dizzy in SFXT because its not in Tekken