Haters gona hate. As per the norm.
is this a bad thing? Im not advocating stagnate the genre but i see no problem if FG wants just the basic. Arent a lot of cult classic base around that?
I wouldn’t say it’s a bad thing…just there isn’t alot of variety and the basics can get rather boring after awhile. Adding some spice never hurts. Barebones basics is like…CoD…that series is so barebones…and it’s horrid…I’d rather not see SF or any game be like that.
Plus, I like having options not being limited in what I can do is always welcomed in my book.
Dizzy does not punish you twice for the same thing. You get damage for getting hit and you get dizzy for getting hit a lot in a short period of time. It’s a mechanic that incentivizes offensive play. In that way it’s like the first hit meter you get in mk9, it’s helps establish the pacing of the match.
Now it varies game to game but say SF4 that is already a defensive game (relative to other fighting games obviously). It would be too defensive without it, you need a reason to get out of your comfort zone. Newer players will get beat down by veterans anyway. Games with dizzy are like all other fighting games, you’ll get the most enjoyment playing against people at or near your own skillset.
And more than just being a competitive mechanic I think it makes the gameplay more beautiful (hear me out). It adds to the aesthetic of the the game. Seeing/feeling that momentum and tension build up as someone goes for stun, it’s a crescendo, like music. It invokes emotion. Watch Poongko vs Daigo Evo2011 again. It’s art man. Art.
youtube.com/watch?v=_AKVJEOSGRM
There’s a line to be drawn between a barebones fighter and an empty fighter. Simply removing things doesn’t make a game ‘pure’.
In my eyes, Third Strike is still a barebones fighter, regardless of dizzies, throws, parries and super arts. At the time you had the likes of CvS, MvC, Power Stone (!?) and Alpha 3; fighting games were on crack (and that’s just Capcom!)
A barebones game is one with a guy, another guy and a timer; no assists, no gimmicks, no super-crazy-invincible-power-time-meter and no party tricks. Compared to some of the features hitting FGs in the late 90s, the parry was just a fancy block. Whatever relish came with third strike was purely there for depth, and its important to appreciate where depth and barebones simplicity work together.
These features create the systems, the ‘meta’ and by extension, the longevity.
What you want is a simple game that has enough features to keep you learning and talking about it for 10+ years, not just a simple game, period.
Dizzy is not bad in itself, it’s just not balanced and shouldn’t be mashing dependent. It should be difficult to stun (HDR allows single comb dizzy) and when it happens, you should take half damage, or have the option to trade a full Super bar to cancel dizzy. Basically, anything is better than how it’s been implemented thus far.
If we’re talking about Sf4, the damage is so nerfed overall in the game that it’s harder to get a dizzy anyway. And in addition to that, by the time your opponent is done punishing you out of dizzy, you’ve probably got almost, if not full, Ultra meter. So in a way, the player being dizzied is REWARDED for it assuming they can land that Ultra somehow!
Only the first hit of multi-hit moves counts as reversal, the first hit of Blanka’s U1 is the ground pound (wich was blocked), all the remaining hits will not break armor.
It works the same way for counter hit, by the way. Only the first hit of any special/normal will get the bonus damage and the extra frames of hitstun.
This is basically what mikez said…the norm is to it never happen, or the game having 100% stun combos. It’s so hard to balance it that from a developer perspective, it’s not worth the work of adding it.
-Both ditactor and DJ have 100% stun leading to TOD in ST.
-In alpha 3 the majority of the cast have 100% stun in v-ism leading to redizzies, that leads to infinites.
-In 3s, there’s some SA that causes 100% stun (denjin/Stun Gun Head-butt ), but they are escapable. Makoto do have 100% stun combos, but you can’t redizzy in the same combo and the damange continue receiving prorate.
-I don’t know enought about sf4 stun, but readed that you can’t redizzy in the same combo, and the next time you try to dizzy your opponent in the same round you have to hit them more than the 1st time. Looks like a improvement to me. But i doubt that the game is free from 100% stun combos.
Actually, Guard break is even harder to balance than Stun is for SF4.
Anyone who discovers a really tight pressure string is going to have a happy wonderland time with it, added to the fact that we have FA Cancels and we’re basically saying “If I have four bars, and you’re stuck blocking, there’s a real possibility that even when you’re blocking well, I’m going to get in some normal moves to chip your guard bar, special moves to give you a bit of chip damage, and then maybe when your guard breaks then…I can just combo you for 1/3 of your life. 100% Guaranteed.”
If we say, well if everyone can do it then its fair? Then this game has degenerated into storing 4 bars and then seeing who hits on block first (best case scenario). If only a few characters can do it, then suddenly they jump up in tiering by virtue of being able to kill you on block even if you’re 1/5 life (Or worse yet SHOSHOSHOSHOSHOSHOSHOSHOSHOSHOSHOSHOSHOSHOSHOSHOSHOSHOSHOSHOSHOSHO). The difference between this and a level 3 FA is that, a level 3 FA takes time. on block attacks can be set up in so many ways that it’s ridiculous, even off a fireball, or off a light kick.
Unlike Stun, which Heavy Characters don’t have many high stun combos, and faster but lower reach / damage characters do balanced out by their ability to combo lots so that it leads to a higher stun combo but they have lower stun value but less damage per hit etcetcetcetcetcetcetcetc, Guard break is too ‘Universal’ for a game that allows you to extend combos off a universal mechanic, and the designers/playtesters have to figure out more on block possible combos rather than just considering normal FA-able combos (Like for example, now they have to test for Shoryuken -> FA -> String of Combo that leads to hadoken -> FA -> String -> FA -> String just to see who’s string is too OP for a guard break situation).
It’s easier to say take it out than to say leave it in. Just like it’s easy now for me to say take out the revenge system rather than to leave it in. It’s difficult to ask ‘Does it help in a game’ because…what does that even mean? Help to make it what? Play better…for who? What we should be looking at, would it cause major problems in the game, if not, then it helps to define the game. SF4 and SSF4 and AE is still going strong with what is in it so far, so presumably dizzy isn’t that big a problem right?
Dizzy is a good mechanic. It feels very rewarding knowing that I made the right guesses/reads and knew when the apply the right pressure at the right time.
That football analogy is terrible. You score a touchdown, you get to try for the extra point, which is actually more similar to how stun operates than not.
why is every saying dizzy a free attack when most gamegive player the option to recover from it? Now admitly ho wthey handle the recovery is bad,.
I think company should take note from Breakers revenge dizzy system.
When stun occurs the opponent has the option to recover by mashing and wiggling stick, pretty similar to other fighter but what it does different is that once you recovery from stun your character does pose that grants full invincibility. allow the player enough time to regain proper control with out misfiring.
Now the offender has three way of handling dizzy. They can take advantage of pre dizzy state where the opponent is open for juggles for any kind but the damage is scale drastically, Or try to go for more damage by attacking during the dizzy state which reset damage scaling, or take advantage of the dizzy recovery that all though grants the defender invincibility. allows the offender to set up stuff like meaty, cross ups,empty jump ins or throws. (Breaker revenge has no throw tech)
In KOF '95 the remaining members of your Team could assist you during dizzy…
I don’t know of any practical 100% stun combos except against certain characters like Seth.
If you dizzy someone in one combo, the free combo you get afterwards will probably only take off about 5% of the opponent’s life, no exaggeration. Most “beware of dizzy” situations in SF4 are when you nearly dizzy someone, reset, and then do a single hit that puts them over the top into dizzy. This will mean the followup combo will not be damage scaled as horribly by the first combo. Example beginning at 1:41:
I thought they changed that to where any move that acts as a reversal gets the full AB property for the whole thing?
Dizzy is ok, but only when it feels like a significant part of a game and it was done on purpose. In GGAC, for example, certain moves by some characters build up a huge amount of dizzy damage on counter hit. Generally matches go too quickly for dizzy to even be a factor, but with these stun heavy guys, all of a sudden you have to be reaaally careful about certain moves when you face off those characters. 3S also has that “blatantly significant” feel with its dizzy meter and its big list of huge stun damage moves.
Contrarily, I think SF4 could have worked well without dizzy. The payoff is usually small. It doesn’t have that “Oh shit Imma take an assload of damage” or that “Oh shit Imma get Insta killed” tension that SF3 and GG have. Overall, an elaborate system that gives a handful of characters free 20% dmg in special situations just doesn’t feel significant.
yeah i don’t know why having moves which do big stun vs big damage somehow makes for a less fun game.
oh no now i have another decision to make based on the specifics of the situation.
how terrible. alex back fierce for life.
I dunno about you guys, but I hate being knocked down in fighting games. I mean, you already got punished for getting hit all those times. Now I gotta get back up, and this dude is jumping over my head, trying to kick me again? Why is this game punishing me?
They should take dizzy, knockdowns, juggles, resets, and jumping, out of the games.