any one wants practice with hawk vs sim hit me up 
ill gladly play hawk against sim
Sim noob here. I need tips vs Honda.
Tips on how to fight butt splash, and hand slaps lol. A lot of hondas i play online spam fierce handslaps and i lose to it =/
Thanks!
Edit: Fatboy - Nice write up on how to fight Honda. Looking forward to part 2
Yeahā¦ I have been working on it. I have some great photoshop images. However most of the write up is for ST. About 70% can be applied to HD.
The new changes to both Sim and Honda make this new match even more difficult for Sim. He can still win but all the pressure is on him not to make a mistake. Sim needs to respect Hondaās new super or it will be a quick match. All the other up grades to Honda were understandable. But the sheer power of the new super and the speed at which it builds might be the overwhelming factor that tilts this match a wee bit in hondaās favor. Time will tell.
Iād love to know what you do against Remix Honda. I think the match is 7-3 in Hondaās favor. Played a bunch of offline matches against LA Akiraās Honda, and he was destroying me. Hands to get close or jab headbutt. Once heās at starting screen range, I canāt fireball because he goes through it. Then the RH butt smashes begin. I can jump back and fierce it sometimes, but then I run out of real estate and get cornered. Then the butt smash shenanigans begin and I have to teleport to get out. By then, Iām practically dead.
There are rounds where I can zone him and he canāt touch me, but I lose every trade, and I have to know everything heās going to do before he does it to counter. If he just jab headbutts from full screen, I donāt know how to keep him out. Standing fierce hits clean, but it doesnāt push him far enough away that Iām safe from any follow up special move. Hands in the face puts a lot of pressure on you, and the two counters to that, down back forward or drill, leave you vulnerable to butt smash. If you try to fireball, he either jab headbutts or butt smashes.
Lastly, Honda builds his super meter pretty quickly. He can easily get two a round if the match even lasts that long. Once he has super, I have to be really careful about fireballing. I didnāt even bother trying to drill rushdown because of the ochio, but short of zoning him with fireballs and jump back fierce, I donāt know what else you can do.
You mentioned earlier that the Guile matchup didnāt look favorable to Dhalsim any more. I played a bunch of this match recently with LA Akira and Mike Watson, and I think itās 6-4 Sim, if not worse. Thereās not much Guile can do. Just play it like Street Fighter II. Match booms with fireballs, but mix up your speeds, and youāll start toasting Guile because of the changeups. Once you get the lead, you can fireball all day. Eventually, he has to jump or razor kick to get close. If he jumps, standing short, down back fierce, or jump back fierce. If heās really predictable, you can hit him with standing forward early. That and standing roundhouse also stuff or trade with sonic booms pre-emptively. Dhalsim dictates the pace of this matchup and Guile has to take all the risks, which is something that takes him out of his comfort zone. I really donāt know what Guile can do if youāre constantly fireballing him in the face like that. Iām doing the fireball motion 99% of the time (with jab, fierce and forward as a fake), and most of the matches end in time over, or Guile suiciding in a desperate attempt to get in. The match is completely safe for Sim.
I also played Watsonās T-hawk, and I was having major problems. Once he gets a 360 throw, he walks up, standing jab a few times, then does another. Unless you can get a teleport off, I donāt think you can get out of it. T-hawk might be a bad mismatch, but nobody plays him, so itās hard to tell.
STfierce into jab yoga flame should be relatively safe after a whiffed bull screen jab headbutt.
You can use my technique of panic and spam mk drills until he jab headbutt and rapes you.
The big problem I am having is his jumping RH or MK (i canāt tell, the super high priority jumpkick) from midscreen. Nothing seems to beat it clean and once he gets close itās buttstomp or jab headbutt or hands time.
Hi
I usually feel like I have the advantage vs Shotos. However I occasionally lose to getting crossed up or spammed by hurricane kicks. What can I do to counter this?
Every time I get crossed up I try to attack, miss and then I get thrown or worse.
I think I would win at least 7-3 every time I match against shotos. So many shotos play ranked matches and I usually feel I will win until I start getting hurricane kick spam.
Reversal block.
If you block the first couple hits of a hurricane kick or slide under it, you can usually punish it safely. It pays to learn the distancing on all hurricane kicks by eye, and I am still working on that, but getting better. You can punish any hurricane with a ducking punch (db) if you time it correctly.
Air hurricanes and crossup you just need to block and try to push them back. If theyāre consistently throwing, go for the reversal fierce throw as it will win most of the time. You can also teleport out of some crossup attempts.
If youāre going to mash something to get out of a block chain (donāt do this) use db.mk. But really just donāt do this. Block. Then punish or push back.
To me, the really hard part about the honda match is that he has so many different viable attacks, especially in the air. The counters to each of these are very situational based on the move heās doing and your spacing. I find it easy to make a bad call or two and end up in very rough spot.
With that said, hereās some things Iāve found that work well against his attacks. Please feel free to correct me or add to these if you see anything missing:
**Down-back + Jab
** This move really helps me a lot in this match. You can hit HHS at the right range, you can beat torpedoes with it, and you can even beat his super with it. Itās also useful at certain ranges to AA many of his jump-ins.
**Down-back + Strong
**You can use this for AA in places where youād normally use jab, but are just slightly out of reach for that to hit. Keep in mind though, that youāre much more vulnerable with this move vs jab. So, if you have doubts, use jab and worst case is that neither of you will hit and youāll end up blocking.
**Standing back + Jab
** This will beat most (all?) of hondaās jump-ins from closer up. So, if youāre not far enough out to counter with down-back jab/strong then try this move. This move is especially useful against his normal jumping splash, since that move beats almost everything else.
Also, if heās close to you and you think heās going to do a butt-stomp, throw one of these out. If you guess right, it can hit him on his way up.
Standing back + MK
This move will often work as AA when hondaās just outside of your standing back + Jab range.
Crouching Fierce
From really far away, like almost full screen, sometimes honda will try to jump forward with MK or HK and then go into hands to get close. If he does this, you can make him land on crouching fierce punch. I donāt think this works against all his jumping attacks though, so be careful to watch which attack he does.
MK Slide AA combo
This is a neat trick that Fatboy showed me one day. If honda does a jumping kick from medium range, you can AA it with a MK slide and link down-back MK. Not only does this get you two hits, but it also pushes him back a bit further.
Iām still not sure what the best follow up to this is when you land it. You can cancel the MK into fire, but thatās risky. Standing or crouching back + jab is probably the safest option if you expect an immediate attack from him, but that doesnāt really help you push him out further.
****MK Slide to evade Torpedo/Super
Generally it is *much *safer to down-back jab his torpedoes or super. However, if you get pushed into the corner then you can slide under his torpedo and put him into the corner instead. This is risky though. Basically, if he does anything besides fierce torpedo or super, youāll get hit. So be careful and only try this in desperate situations.
Meaty max-range MP Yoga Flame
Whenever you knock Honda down walk up to the max range of your yoga flame and do the medium version of it. As far as I know, this will beat everything he can do on wakeup except for maybe the super. Even if he tries to butt-stomp out of there, itāll hit him on the way up. If he gets hit, then do it again. If he blocks, use whatever you want to push him further out.
Also, I have a question: Does anyone know what the scoop is on simās yoga flame corner trap against honda in remix? Does his new LP headbutt get him out of this now? If so, is there alteration to the trap that might work almost as well, like maybe a db.MP xx flame loop?
For a shoto crossing you up with hurricane kicks, I assume youāre talking about the jump version. If you see it early enough, you can forward slide to get out of dragon punch range and mess up their spacing. If itās a ground hurricane kick, you can stuff it early with a pre-emptive forward or roundhouse kick. Once itās out, jump back fierce if you know theyāre going to do it.
If you are caught offguard and itās a RH kick, you can block two hits and down back strong. You can also back and standing strong or standing fierce to hit it when itās on its way down. Hurricane kicks are definitely a problem against a good player if they catch you offguard. They can do short hurricanes to get in, which are hard to react to if done when you donāt expect it. Kenās RH hurricane is a pain because the risk/reward is so much worse than the damage you get for jump back fierce.
You list all these anti-airs for Honda, but Honda has no need to jump at you. Jab headbutt goes through the fireball; HHS advances his position; and RH butt smash quickly gets you in the corner. It doesnāt matter if you hit him out of all of those moves. He gets close, which is all he cares about. The follow-up flame may push him back some after block, but at that distance, itās probably not safe to throw another fireball.
I mainly listed those for general advice against honda. A lot of them people probably know already, but it never hurts to be refreshed on all the options.
As for honda not needing to jumpā¦I have yet to experience this. All of the Hondas I play against end up jumping to try to get in at some point. In my experience you can usually beat his ground game and force him to jump. But maybe the hondas youāre playing against are doing something different than Iām used to. Hopefully Iāll run into LA Akira sometime.
In my experience, it goes down like this. Once he does something to get a little closer (LP torpedo or HHS), the important thing is to either beat his follow up move or cause a slight pause in the action so you can make him block a limb and push him back out. Down-back jab stops almost everything on the ground other than a butt stomp. So, after he does something to close in, I usually throw out db.jab. If that hits his follow up move, then you can poke/firebal him back out. If he doesnāt do a follow up move, then half the time you can poke him back out anyway. But if you suspect your poke will get hit, then just wait or throw out another db.jab. The only thing that seems really tricky to deal with to me on the ground is when he goes for the butt stomp. But if heās doing this from further away and youāre looking for it, then you have options to deal with that too. Besides up-flame and jump back fierce, you can also slide past him if he does the RH stomp.
Donāt get me wrong though. Hondaās a mofo. All of this stuff is a lot easier said than done. And I could certainly stand to get better at this match-up myself. Still, Iād really like to see someone who can dominate with honda on the ground. In my head, it still doesnāt quite compute.
Add me to your friends list. I can play the Honda side of the match competently. Maybe we can figure some things out.
If you get your spacing right, several things beat the buttstomp. Iāve been practicing this and it seems like something I could learn to do consistently:
- St.mk will stuff it from certain ranges (e.g. when it hits him on his way up after the startup)
- B+mp will stuff it from right overhead non crossup, clean, at certain ranges. This is risky but I think the timing can be learned.
- Yoga chop (b+jab) will beat it clean from a little further than b+mp range
- When you are too far for yoga chop, db.jab will beat it clean and allow you to poke him back to max range fairly safely.
In particular, the problem I have against good hondas is - Once he has meter, it is no longer safe to jump back preemptively. So it feels like I have to have a ground answer to the buttstomp, that doesnāt involve him hitting me with fierce HHS block damage for free after I block it.
Typically nowadays, I begin each Honda round with a db.jab and then prepare to yoga uppercut (b.mp) if he buttstomps. You will win clean (if you time it correctly) if he starts with a Rh buttstomp after you whiff a db. jab. If he starts with HHslap or a torpedo, db.jab seems to win clean.
Then I try to push his ass across the screen and zone with a mix of jab fireballs. Like JVsays, I have never run into a Honda who does not try to jump in. Either he jumping MK/Rhās, neutral jump fierces, splashes, or jump shorts. But buttslamming is not safe, since Sim can punish it with pain and a match reset.
Good hondas seem to have this goal in mind: jump in, make you block a fierce handslap or a buttsmash, and then shenanigans. So your goal is to not fall prey to either of those. If it gets to stage 3 (shenanigans) you are probably screwed.
Are you talking about the far MK here or back + MK. I know that back + MK can hit him on the way up from around sweep distance, but it sounds like youāre talking about the far one. If so, when do you usually use this? It seems like at the range that would work throwing out a far MK would be dangerous because if he torpedoes instead, youāll get knocked down.
Do you know if this works reliably when youāre in the corner and he buttstomps max distance where he ends up hugging the wall on the way down? If so, then I really need to get the timing of this one down.
Yeah, Iāve used this one pretty successfully too. It also seems much easier to time right than those others to me. Iām starting to wonder if back + MK would also work at this range. It might be nice to get a bit more damage off him. Also, if heās just slightly further out so that heāll just whiff on the way down I wonder how easy it is to hit him with back + HK. Hmmā¦I wish there was an easy way to test this stuff.
Yeah, it definitely gets tricky once he has meter. I usually focus on trying to bait out his super once he gets it, but the good ones donāt always fall for that.
Thatās really good to know. I definitely need to learn the timing of that move. Iāve been able to up-flame right after a db.jab at the start of the round, but the timing on that is really, really tight and I find it hard to do it on reaction. Itās more like I thow out both moves and if does something immediately I hit him, but if he pauses at the start then Iām vulnerable. Back + MP seems like itād be a lot easier to do on reaction, so thatās really cool.
Neutral MK and RH can both stuff buttstomps, but I am not 100% positive it can be done on reaction. I think so. Like, you see the buttstomp from the right range and instantly toss out the kick, itāll stuff it. I think. need to test this more.
The thing is though, at that range you could jump back fierce, on reaction, instead, Iād think. I have seen excellent dhalsim players kicking hondas out of buttstomps from the ground though, so I am positive there is a place for this. I want to say it was a Gian video, actually. He might have just been throwing it out preemptively though.
Iāll look this one up tonight and see if I can find it (the neutral MK).
Back MP will beat buttstomp any time you can make it so he lands on the hand. It will work as long as he doesnāt hit you on the way up. If he hits you on the way up, your blockstun is too long to get the punch out in time, I believe - this has been my experience anyway.
One big problem area for me now is his jumping kick, honestly. Pretty ridiculous. But what happens is Iām zoning zoning, then he jumps in with his freakish priority jump kick, and I canāt kick it or chop it. Need to test out that MK slide thing
I played about 30 games with SweetJV as Honda just now. The matches went back and forth, but I started noticing trends. If I get him in the corner and get off a RH butt stomp that he has to block, the round is pretty much over. If the fights stays in the middle of the screen, Dhalsim usually has the advantage.
SweetJV was trying a lot of things to get out of the corner against the RH butt stomp. Some that worked were teleport, RH slide (I think thatās what you did, to get on the other side, then all my moves pushed you out of the corner), even jump back forward kick (didnāt work to get out of the corner, but it broke the rhythm a bit). But about 75% of the time he blocks a butt stomp in the corner, itās the end of the round.
Another thing I noticed was if I score a knockdown with Honda, Iād jump short on wakeup, then ochio. It didnāt look like Dhalsim had a good way to get out of this. The ochio would put him near the corner then the followup RH buttstomp and hands on wake up would fully push him into the corner. So if Honda scores a single knockdown via jab or fierce headbutt or standing RH kick, expect to get cornered fast.
Also when Honda has super, itās really hard to zone him because you have to be unpredictable with your fireballs. JV was having some success with drill rushdown to dizzy me when I tried to get hands going. A little trickery led to some throws (also following the flame trap in the corner), but I have a feeling I could have ochioed if I had been expecting them. Good job on those. Also, the flame trap in the corner can be escaped by jab headbutt.
Yeah, you cannot expect to get away with drill rushdown in a serious competitive match, with Sim v. Honda. Forward buttslam or jab headbutt puts a rapid stop to the shenanigans, and Oichyo pianoing is bad news when youāre trying a noogie trap.
To clarify, are you meaning blocks a buttstomp on the way up or on the way down? On the way down, I am pretty positive that you can always b.mp that shit. If you block it on the way up, youāre definitely toast, as hands into rape is coming very quickly.
The super is the real match changer here, tbh.
Ran into another road block and its name is VEGA :mad:
When I play decent Vegas I get rushed down like crazy. I cant get around that damn claw or his wall tactics.
Any help would be appreciated :china:
Good stuff Eggo. That was a fun set yesterday!
Let me expand a bit on what Eggo said and add a couple more thoughts I came up after that set:
Corner
Yeah, if you get cornered youāre mostly screwed. I was able to hit Honda with jump back fierce and jump back MK, depending on spacing. But that mostly just delayed the inevitable rape.
The slide I used was MK, and I had to do it super duper early. It was usually in anticipation of another butt stomp and not in reaction to it. So, it doesnāt seem like a very dependable option. But itās something. The roundhouse slide would also get you out, but the recovery of that is so long that Iām pretty sure youāll get hit after he lands.
I think the only solid ways out are teleport, up flame if you have really good reaction timing, and maybe those normals that pokken talked about if you can get the timing of them down. The teleport seems like the safest most of the time, but sometimes you re-appear in bad places. The normals could become the best method if you learned them well. But Iām not sure how easy that will be to do, especially since Hondaās spacing is often subtly different.
Jump Short -> Ochio
In general, whenever Honda is close and I expect an Ochio, I try to counter-throw. But I wasnāt having much luck with that.
**Drills vs Hands
**Yeah, this isnāt something you can use as main offense. I donāt recommend using drills often at all. However, thereās one situation where I do find them useful. If you just hit him a couple times and feel that a dizzy is close and heās in rush-in mode *and *you expect hands next then a drill->cr.mk or drill x 2 to seal the dizzy can work out well. And this mostly only works because heās not expecting the drills since you rarely/never do them otherwise.
**JV Throw Shenanigan
**First, some disclaimers. Yes this is risky. Also, this wouldnāt work against players that are constantly throwing out quick attacks while idle (aka Japanese players). It wonāt work against scrubs who *always *throw out something on wake-up either. With all that said, hereās how it works:
Against many characters that have a good wake-up reversal move (Shotos, Honda, etc) a good tactic to use after knock down is to walk up to the range where a yoga flame will just barely touch them and do one somewhat late. Initially, they might try their move and your flame will beat it. After that theyāll learn to block it. Keep doing this every time you knock them down. When you finally feel that they are trained to just sit there and block this every time, walk up, duck quickly to fake a flame motion, then walk forward and do FP throw at max range. For maximum efficiency, do this when the throw will kill them so that they canāt tech it. Itās risky as hell, but itās also really fun when it works :wgrin:
**Corner Trap Throw Shenanigan
**This works on the same idea as the other one. You get them to expect a non-stop loop of flames in the corner. But instead, you throw one or two out and then slide throw or walk-in throw.
**Hondaās Super
**Yeah, this thing is a bitch. Not only does it hurt a lot, but getting knocked down in general against Honda screws you. So, itās a double whammy. I think the trick is to bait it out, but I havenāt found a good way to do that yet. Half the time I try to bait it out, I end up actually getting hit. So, I think learning the subtle spacing and timing of what you can throw out to bait it and still be able to block will be important. Does anyone have any tricks to bait his super?
**Hondaās LP Torpedo
**I think learning the precise spacing of this move will be very important. Currently I find myself throwing fireballs at ranges where Iāll get hit. So thatās bad. But, I have a theory on how to turn this move against him. If you learn the exact spacing of his LP torpedo and throw out a fireball from just barely outside that range, my guess is that you can bait him into doing it and then nail him with something hard (headbutt, cr.mk x 2, super, etc). Iām not sure if the fireball recovery time is good enough, so Iāll have to do some testing. But if it works, it could be really handy.
**General Thoughts
**In ST this match-up felt to me like it was in Simās favor, but only if you donāt screw up. In remix, with his better super and LP torpedo, I think the same thing applies even more so.
I think two things are necessary to win this match consistently. First, learn the exact spacing and counters against all his best attacks. If you can cleanly stop his main game plan, that should trip him up and make him have to resort to shenanigans that heās less familiar with. Secondly, take a hard look at how you play this match, identify any bad habits you have, and try to unlearn those. I know I certainly have a few, and often when I lose it feels like itās because I did something dumb that let him get in or knock me down. Not giving him those openings should help to make the match more consistent.
This statement applies to pretty much every Sim matchup in Vanilla, and I think so in HDR too. Its pretty much why I donāt agree with the sky is falling mentality that a lot of Sim players are getting behind: Sim still has the same tools to win (other than the bad matches he already had in Vanilla).
Iām not understanding the hype behind LP torpedo. At around the max range where it would hit in Vanilla, it wasnāt safe to throw a fb anyway because fierce torpedo was going to tag you
I love ya Ryu. But this is very incorrect. Several of Sims tools were removed. Namely ( throw ranges) the noogie traps he needed to win the dictator and claw match ups. This are very difficult match ups without them. He also lost the flame lock down on Honda in the corner. He lost the abilty to cancel onto super. The list can go on for a bit. However, by no means does this mean he is a poor character. I think it shows just how strong he was in ST. He just needs to work harder to winā¦ Which is still a bitch if you a sim player. However, it is nowhere as bad as what had happend to the boxer players.