Dhalsim - YOGUH!

Classic Fighting Games SSF2T: HD Remix
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I’m not sure if I’m doing the yoga flame corner trap correctly on bison. It appears that I’m doing one right after the other and he’ll be stuck in there for about six iterations of yoga flame, and the same player seems to get out in the air eventually. Since I know I can’t keep the trap up, I’ll usually yoga flame a few times, wait a split second as if I screwed up my timing, then yoga blast to knock him out of the air. A few times the yoga blast hitbox has missed, but I’m 99.99% correct on every guess that my opponent is going to jump. After that knockdown I usually go back to the corner trap with yoga flames, except this time I instead of a yoga blast I’ll tick throw off of a yoga flame.

I always go for the noogie, which I guess is a mistake, but I’m curious to know the best option for sim after he noogies/throws an opponent into a corner? I have tried to walk back -> yoga flame after the noogie reset, but I’ve been punished for this a lot, so I’m not sure if that’s due to bad execution or just a bad tactic in general?

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You know, I think I know what you’re talking about. I was in a shitty mood today because I just kept getting crushed. I almost threw my stick out the window when I ran into this Bison player - pretty good player I guess, but fuck if I didn’t eat a half-dozen of those crossup psycho crushers. I was sure I was blocking.

What I am thinking it might possibly be is that I very often will stop blocking the psycho crusher after the first hit, because of the property in ST where you block the first hit of a special move you automatically block the rest (e.g. Ken’s hurricane kick). Maybe this isn’t the case for psycho crushers in this version for some reason? OR was it not before?

It’s a bit of a different thing for me because in oldschool ST, good bison players did not randomly psycho crusher Dhalsim (because there were so many ways to punish it that involved terrible terrible death).

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Until your execution is flawless you’ll occasionally move a tiny bit backwards during a flame, that’s probably screwing up your range. I have this problem, so I’ll just do a couple flames then do the walk up fierce throw, or a mk drill -> lp XX yoga fire or something.

When I throw an opponent in the corner I will do any of a lot of things. On Bison, you have to be careful that your timing is right with a meaty yoga flame in the corner, or else you’ll get thrown or eat scissor kick or he’lll neutral jump roundhouse you or whatever.

On characters like Deejay or Guile, you want to walk back and throw a slow yoga fire, then do a yoga fire trap from just outside of RH flashkick range (this seems to work for deejay as it’s about the range of his jumping roundhouse, so you can slide it on reaction).

On Ken or Ryu I’ll usually throw a meaty MP yoga flame if I know I have the timing and range right. If they tech the throw a lot of times this is not the correct thing to do I don’t think. When in doubt, wait for them to do something and punish it.

A lot of times I will walk up like I’m going to do a meaty yoga flame and then just stand there and wait – walk up, duck once and then block backwards.

Really it differs on almost every character, and whether they tech the throw or not.

With a noogie, I’ll tend to do one of a few things (depending on the reversals of the opponent)

  1. Do two a combination of short slides, rh drills, or just one, into tick throw.
  2. Short slide or roundhouse drill -> lp XX yoga flame
  3. Walk up and duck block just out of throw and jab dp range. Then punish whatever they do.
  4. Walkup meaty db.mk -> db mk (or db mk -> db jab XX yoga fire).
  5. Whiff RH drill then block and react. A lot of times you can score a free walkup throw as they think they’re gonna block the rh drill :wink:

I am done going for slide into noogie. I always, always tick with fierce throw now. This gives worse setups than noogie, but it’s damage and position.

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At first, I thought that might be my problem too. I usually punish blocked crushers at mid-screen with a standing fierce after they pass by. So I thought I might’ve been hitting fierce too early. But I could swear that sometimes I just blocked and still got hit. I’ll see if I can get one of my friends to help me test this thing out.

225

I got caught by the cross-up Psycho Crusher the other day (for lack of a better term). I blocked the first two hits, and the third hit me. I wasn’t hitting any buttons. Just blocking the wrong way, most likely. It’s really annoying, but it doesn’t seem to happen all the time. I have yet to see a Dictator abuse it by doing it consistently.

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My friend megamanpb came over tonight, we did some testing, and we figured out a few interesting things.

Cross-up Psycho Crusher
We were able to re-create this reliably with the fierce psycho crusher. The spacing had to be just right. It was about 1/3 screen away, I think. The fierce crusher normally does 3 hits of block damage. But at this spacing only two hits of it connect. The first hits connects early and the last one hits late. The timing of these hits doesn’t combo like it normally would. In other words, there’s a gap in between the two hits that’s long enough to exit block-stun.

At most ranges, when you block the fierce psycho crusher you can let go of the stick after blocking the 1st hit and you’ll auto block the rest. At this spacing, however, if you let the stick go to neutral you’ll get hit by the second hit. Luckily, avoiding this seems to be easy. I was able to block the second hit in either direction! Not sure why that works, but it didn’t seem to matter whether i pushed forward or back, I’d still block the 2nd hit. You only get punished if you go to neutral. You’ll probably also get hit if you try to attack between these moves.

So, the solution is simple. Just make sure to keep blocking all the way through the crusher and dont attack until he’s completely cleared you. I’m still curious why I never noticed this in ST, but whatever…

Honda’s butt stomps in the corner
If Honda does a roundhouse butt stomp that pushes him all the way against the wall in the corner, you can NOT beat it cleanly with back + MP. In theory, back + LP might work, but you’d have about 1 frame at best to make that happen. So realistically, neither of those work. If he does this your best bet to beat it by far is to do an up-flame. With the new quarter circle motion, this seems to be fairly reasonable if you expect it and can react quickly.

If Honda does a roundhouse butt stomp that doesn’t quite go up against the wall, then back + MP can beat it cleanly. The timing is really tight though. You want your arm to be fully extended up just as he begins to fall. If you swipe too early so that your attack ends while he’s still at his apex, you won’t hit him. If you swipe a few frames after he’s falling you’ll trade. You only hit cleanly during the first couple of frames that he’s falling. So, this will work, but an up-flame is still a better option if you can do it.

If he does a light or medium butt-stomp, there’s some good news! With either one of these, if he grazes you on the way up so that you take one hit of block damage you can ALWAYS hit him with back + jab on his way down. What’s great about this is that it takes thinking out of the equation. If you block a hit, do back + jab every time. The only tricky part is figuring out what to next. I couldn’t figure out a follow up that was completely safe. So mix it up after doing this.

We also did some tests to see what works best in hitting honda proactively on his way up during a butt-stomp when he’s fairly close to you. Back + Jab seems like the best by far. Back + LK or back + MK seemed like they mostly whiffed and sometimes traded. Thinking back, I’m not sure if we tested back + MP much though. Still back + LP is probably a better option anyway since it’ll probably work better if honda doesn’t end up flying up.

None of these things really make it any less scary to get cornered by Honda, but knowing what will and won’t work helps a little I guess.

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I have the hardest time beating Honda. Am I the only one with this problem?

Also, I have been crushed by T Hawk a few times. I couldn’t figure out any counters to his dives and other tactics.

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Back jab hits his dive clean, and it beats all of his jump attacks… unless he’s right on your head. I’ve had some success doing down back jab or strong after blocking his low jabs into Typhoon. It needs more testing, but I think you can escape his ticks into Typhoon. Gief is a lot harder to get out of. If you can’t teleport or super, you might be screwed.

And yeah, Honda is my least liked match. I’d much rather face a Chun Li or Vega, compared to a Honda. It’s been discussed earlier in the thread things you can try against him. Just know that you will lose all trades, and if he does a RH butt drop in the corner, teleport is your friend.

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Ugh, just played the best T-Hawk I’ve met online - Vladan AU. We played a bunch of games, and I really, really have problems with his Hawk, moreso than any other character I’ve met. The matches are really nerve racking. I do all my damage from back jab of his dives or jump ins. If he whiffs a DP, I back forward. I’ll throw out the occasional fast fireball if he gets too footsie happy. If he does a lot of low strong, I low fierce under it. So all my hits are ticking for minor damage. He’s just trying to land one DP. Sometimes, he’ll whiff a DP at a certain range and land with a Typhoon. Other times, he’ll jump from a distance where my back jab whiffs, and land with a Typhoon. Once he knocks me down, I’m usually in the corner, and it’s Typhoon city until I’m dead.

Is there any way out of his tick/Typhoon throws on wake with Dhalsim? He has a bunch of set-ups. Low forward, Typhoon. Standing forward, Super. Jump fierce (or RH), low jab, low jab, Typhoon. I tried back strong, piano inputting strong and fierce, teleport, down back jab… some of them worked sometimes, but I think he likely made a mistake, because nothing works 100%. If I don’t have a super, what do you recommend trying to break the loop?

His timing on the Typhoon ticks is pretty tight. I switched to Honda at one point (and was having good success), but even with stored ochio and piano inputting strong and fierce, he still gets the command throw out against me, so I think he’s got the timing down. There was **some **lag in the matches, as he’s in Australia and I’m in the U.S., but I don’t want to blame things on latency as generally the game was playable overall.

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That is what I came into the thread to say. As long as the Honda player is slightly competent the match seems insanely hard… And I think people are catching on. Since I started using my Sim gamerpic it seems I have been facing waaaay more Hondas right when I join a room, so I’ve been mixing up my pics for the first few matches lately. Just a bad match or am I missing the super secret formula for pummeling E. Honda?

And yeah, Hawk can be a bitch also. Luckily, the amount of good Hawk players is very small. Honda though…

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Honestly, I just force Honda and Hawk to play my game not theirs. Meaning I go with with pure zoning.

I use slow fireballs to force any type of reaction and try to pick up on their habits quick. If they like to jump after they see that fireball I will usually just do a st. rh. If they like to crouch block I will usually slide/drill or do a st. fp. Slide/drill is just for spacing re-adjustment and the fp is for block pressure. If I manage to get them into the corner I will do slide to cr. back strong to yoga flame and mix that with rh drills to cr. back forward to yoga flames or upward Yoga flame if I feel like they will jump.

But honestly, I mostly just play the long range game. Once you knock them out of the air once or twice with st. rh most good players won’t try that gain without getting a feel for your pattern. In that case I start shooting fast fireballs to get in chip damage. Usually 2 or 3 before I start going back to slow ones for zoning purposes. If they get close I RARELY attempt to engage in footsies. I almost always just try to get them back out. They are made to fight at close range while Dhalsim is more of a heavy control type character.

As for dealing with tick throw set-ups, I have had some decent success with reverse throws with his fp throw more so then his noogie. Might be due to the throw ranges. You can also teleport if ur timing is good. Obviously it’s easier to try to mash for that reverse throw, but if the timing is tight then they will most likely get the throw over you.

Dhalsim’s options for getting out of those situations aren’t exactly amazing. They are passable at best. So you really have to concentrate on playing that long range game in these two fights especially.

Vs jump ins Dhalsim has a few options actually. I like st short. It’s actually really good as an AA. The hitbox is really nice and it seems to stuff alot of jump in attacks. It also hits at an angle where back strong and back jab don’t hit as well.

You can also st. jab the Hawk dive.

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Are slide(of whatever strength) or df+mp still useable as an anti-air? Can someone give me examples, like what characters or jump-ins or whatever. I’m guessing with his nerfed throw range df+mp to lower your hitbox into throw isn’t what it used to be? But what about slide. Like not sliding under them like shotos when they jump at you, but a late lk slide or something. Is that a horrible idea?

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Well, I’ve read a ton of stuff on how to handle Honda and thanks to everyone who has offered tips, but I’m still having trouble with him. He really really annoys me. I usually just avoid players who use him now because the match up is just no fun at all.

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Against Thawk, I’ve had some success against the Hawk dive like this:
neutral jump or jump back (range dependent), and roundhouse drill it. if he whiffs, he has a significant recovery time – it’s only if you block it that he is safe.

With Honda, I suggest getting yourself into a 2 player room and going at it with a Honda player for a long time. that’s the only way to learn this matchup.

My experience however is that you need to categorize your opponent a little. Honda is dangerous to Dhalsim for a number of reasons. Buttspam, hhs spam, tick oichyo spam, headbutt spam, etc, all dangerous.

Most players fall into two categories: Buttspam crossups v. Oichyo spam. There are two subtypes - headbutt subtype or hhs subtype, it feels like. Like, most players will either do buttspam crossups into headbutt attempts, or hhs attempts. Or they will do jumpin oichyo spam into either headbutt combos or hhs attempts.

This matchup is a sadly a lot about knowing the player, since if you spend your entire match planning for him to either hundred hand slap or buttbomb or headbutt simultaneously, you are going to not be able to do anything except db.jab, or fireball if you’re at full screen.

In a tournament setting this would make it very very hard. What I would recommend is, turtling down for a little bit and trying to get a feel for him.

The most important thing in this matchup is to WAIT. A lot of your antiairs and punishment moves will just not work unless you wait patiently for the right moment. For example:

The buttbomb is the biggest problem I have personally had. Like, I throw a fireball, then I see a buttbomb, and I immediately want to throw a fierce to make him land on it, or a cr.mp or similar. You can’t do this. You’ve got to wait until he lands and whack him before he recovers, otherwise you lose a nasty trade.

Lots of his jumping attacks are similar. You’ve got to either punish when he lands, or hit him before or after the move comes out. His jump roundhouse is super hard to deal with.

If you play dhalsim well, it is best to just be prepared to play Honda, because that’s the #1 scrub counterpick for Dhalsim. #2 is chun, #3 is claw, and #4 is blanka. I always expect my opp. to pick one of these characters after I romp their main a few times.

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hahaha it’s so funny that you list those 4 characters because those are where I’ve gotten 90% of my loses. I guess I don’t feel so bad now. Anyway is there anything for us to do vs zangief’s lp, lk -> throw? I rarely let a gief get in on me and I enjoy the matchup but I just want to know what the best option is. Try to jump or try to counterthrow?

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You don’t have an option, assuming the gief is ticking with perfect timing. It’s just one of (the only?) Dhalsim’s flaws. In theory you can reversal super now, as well as reversal teleport. Other than that, if your opponent is sloppy, c.mk (d/b to be specific, not slide) is sim’s fastest normal.

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With Gief, I feel like I have a fair shot of not getting stuck in the corner, at least. Unlike with Honda.

You just have to keep him out. Not much to it. He punks half the cast in the corner. But he has to work to put them there :slight_smile:

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Me, too. Those four dudes are also super easy to win with via retard mashtics. Sure it’s fine and fair game because it works, but ugh. It is irritating.

What I did is learn the matches as best I can, and then picked up Deejay. He beats each and every single one of Dhalsim’s scrub counterpicks, badly, so works pretty good for me :stuck_out_tongue: (and he beats Bison and Cammy too, which are his other two rougher matchups).

With Gief, I will usually try to teleport. Doesn’t seem to work, however, since most Giefs don’t use jab/short on me. They use meaty jumping fierce or short kick or the kneepress, to which Dhalsim can do nothing but pray for a merciful death.

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I’d recommend Ryu. He does better against Chun/Blanka/Honda than Dee Jay IMO. There’s more of a “mess-up” factor for Deejay because once Honda or Blanka get in its very hard to get a knock down and push them back out because short upkicks are so shitty, especially against buttslam. Chun/Ryu I know for sure is worse for Chun in this game which probably pushes it to a 6.5/3.5. Against Claw, I have no idea if Dee Jay is better but its a bad/boring match for Ryu to try to win.

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Yeah, I would agree with this. The problem is there’s absolutely no “wow” factor with Ryu. Even at this stage in the game, everyone plays shotos, so everyone knows the shoto matches really, really well. Mediocre Chun vs. Mediocre Ryu (me) is a rough ass match for Ryu. Mediocre Chun vs. Mediocre DJ is less brutal. :slight_smile:

I guess that’s kind of a scrubby way of looking at it. Given how easy DPs are now, with my new stick + the expanded window, I could probably learn to play Ryu to a high level. I might look into that some more.

The other problem Ryu has is that he loses to Claw, pretty badly. Deejay however punks Claw (6-4 or worse now, imho).