Your smarts, in here
WIP match up break down. Refer to my google doc for any updates.
At round start, Nash is at a slight disadvantage since you’re within his s.Forward range and cr.Strong anti-air range. If you suspect they’ll do an opening gambit of s.Strong/Forward you can start the match with s.Strong/Fierce in an attempt to counter hit/crush counter the limb. If you’re timing is off, their poke will hit you and they have momentum to control the pacing. If the Dhalsim player decides not to push a button at round start they can whiff punish you after wards. You can also try jumping at round start but you risk getting anti-aired at this position. The damage will be minor but the momentum will be in favor of Dhalsim. You’re safest option at round start is to either walk back to proximity block his long range pokes or back dash to avoid his faster pokes such as s.Strong or Forward.
Dhalsim’s long range pokes and mobility can make closing the gap on him tricky. That being said, his pokes feel a lot slower on startup and recovery in comparison to past SF games. This makes whiff punishing them easier in general. Against his s.Forward or s.Strong, you want to use cr.Strong or cr.Forward to whiff punish. You can even hit confirm the cr.Strong into V-Trigger and continue the combo from there. If you block s.Forward don’t jump against Dhalsim right afterwards because he has enough time to react with cr.Strong. Against his s.Fierce you want to whiff punish with cr.RH to get the knockdown and start your approach. Against Dhalsim’s s.RH you want to use s.Forward to whiff punish and if you have V-Trigger you can again confirm into neutral V-Trigger and continue the combo from there.
You can try to use an anticipatory Moonsault Slash to punish Dhalsim’s limbs but these are going to be hard reads and carry more risk than usual since Dhalsim has a multitude of ways to deal with Moonsault Slash. Both s.Jab, b.Strong, and b.Fierce are easy anti-air options for Moonsault Slash but he can also go air-to-air with a variety of jumping normals. Yoga Fire’s controls the air space, which will catch Moonsault Slash if you’re just using them randomly. The last option Dhalsim has is to use cr.Short/Forward to slide underneath Moonsault Slash altogether. The problem is when you space yourself at this whiff punish range Dhalsim is less likely going to just stand there and throw pokes. He’ll start throwing fireballs, teleports, and yoga float, which throws offs your ideal whiff punishing range. If you see the start up of his V-Skill, yoga float, you can use Moonsault Slash as a means to approach. It forces the Sim player to either try to go air-to-air or teleport and if they do neither they’ll get tagged by Moonsault Slash which gives you a knockdown.
If he starts jumping he’ll either V-Skill or teleport in this scenario as the raw jump gives away too much space for him. You can attempt an anticipatory Moonsault Slash to try and catch the jump or startup of the V-Skill but you run the risk of getting air-to-air or anti-aired. If you are off on the timing they can also teleport to get away. It might be better to dash, to gain ground on Dhalsim and then react to his next move. Dhalsim can save the teleport during the descent of the jump so during a dash and wait strategy, you can at least reposition yourself. If the Dhalsim player opts to teleport behind you during the descent of the jump, you have enough time to react to the teleport and you’ve reset the positioning back to midscreen.
Dhalsim’s teleport into j.Fierce is pretty staple to his gameplay and is often complemented with his Yoga Fire to try and create left/right mix ups. If Dhalsim doesn’t have a Yoga Fire backing up his teleport you can press s.Jab and hit him out of the recovery of his teleport. You can even use EX Sonic Scythe to anti-air the teleport attempt as well. The strongest option is to wait slightly with a s.Fierce, which would crush counter a teleport j.Fierce when timed correctly. You can then confirm into Strong Tragedy Assault for a huge punish and meter drain.
Yoga Fire now shoots in a parabellum, unless it’s the EX version, and leaves Dhalsim quite vulnerable. The total duration of Yoga Fire is 53f (15f startup+38f recovery) and Nash’s dash is 17f and covers about half the screen. From full screen if you don’t have V-Trigger available and you react to the start up of Yoga Fire you can actually do 2 dashes and you’ll be within cr.Forward range of Dhalsim. At this range, if you reacted slightly late to the Yoga Fire start up the two dashes into cr.Forward will beat the majority of Dhlasim’s pokes. Dhalsim will need to use his slides to counter the poke but each slide is punishable on block when not spaced correctly. Just outside of fullscreen range if you react fast enough you can do two dashes and cr.Jab xx Short Sonic Scythe to punish the Yoga Fire. If you’ve got V-Trigger at this range you can react to the Yoga Fire’s startup with neutral V-Trigger to teleport punish the recovery. At mid range, you can dash once and punish the recovery of Yoga Fire with cr.Fierce/Strong. With V-Trigger you can react with f.Fierce xx f.V-Trigger for a huge punish.
Never use f.Fierce as a neutral tool against Dhalsim because he can consistently punish it, on block, with s.Forward.
All of Sim’s long range normals can actually be punished on anticipation/reaction with V-Trigger into a normal. When I say punish you’re not punishing the normals on whiff but similar concept of punishing the startup/recovery of a fireball with V-Trigger, Normal, which you can also do against Sim’s fireballs. You’re looking for the start up of the fireball/normal and then use V-Trigger to teleport behind Dhalsim and then punish the recovery. You want to use neutral V-Trigger, s.Fierce xx RH Sonic Scythe punish against Dhalsim’s s.Forward, s.RH, and s.Strong. Against his s.Fierce, neutral V-Trigger, s.Fierce actually whiffs against Dhalism so you want to whiff punish with forward V-Trigger, j.Fierce, s.Fierce xx RH Sonic Scythe instead.
Do not use Moonsault Slash in block strings because it’s very easy for Dhalsim to anti-air with s.Jab or b.Strong. The s.Jab is the easiest as it’s a 3f jab and lets him do TK Yoga Gale for offense. Dhalsim can also use his crouching Kicks to slide underneath all versions of Moonsault Slash and then punish you after wards.
If you are anti-aired by Dhalsim’s s.Jab, he’s able to TK Yoga Gale, which will hit meaty when you recover from the anti-air. If you block the TK Yoga Gale, Dhalsim is +3 on block so you’ll need to block his subsequent pressure after wards.
In the corner, Dhalsim has a setup off of b.Fierce combo starter. The combo is b.Fierce xx Fierce Yoga Flame, cr.Fierce xx Fierce Yoga Flame. Everything up to cr.Fierce combos and the Yoga Flame will hit meaty during the recovery of your aerial reset state. You cannot challenge this string and must block the meaty Yoga Flame. Dhalsim will be + on block afterwards and you’ll have to deal with his subsequent pressure.
One of the Dhalsim’s primary overhead tools is instant j.Jab or j.Fierce. The j.Jab has more range than the j.Fierce variant but deals less damage. You’ll most likely see this towards the end of a round where one hit would finish you off. You need to be aware of this in these situations and try to block high in anticipation. Dhalsim is punishable during the recovery of this instant j.Jab/Fierce.
All of Dhalsim’s crouching Kicks are slides and are, from weak to heavy, -7, -8, and -21 on block. Even spacing them out at max range they are still negative on block. The only thing to look out for is when he has V-Trigger because they will cancel the slide into V-Trigger, which is +4 on block. It lets them regain space and momentum as you have to deal with the continuous grey damage from the flames. The block string into V-Trigger is a bad situation for you, as the V-Trigger deals continuous gray damage, as long as you’re within it’s hitbox. Its best to V-Reversal when you visually see V-Trigger activation or once you’ve block the V-Trigger.
If Dhalsim lands a forward throw, he has a meaty slide setup that covers quick rise and no tech. The setup is forward throw, s.Jab (whiff), cr.Forward and leaves Dhalsim at +2 vs quick rise and +6 against no techs. If he hits the meaty, he can link b.Forward xx Yoga Flame. You’re only option is to block the meaty slide in this situation as the slide will catch back dashes and reversal V-Trigger. Blocking the meaty is not a big deal since he can’t really do a mix up after wards but this does give him pressure. You can V-Reversal the meaty slide to escape the situation altogether.
A couple of things I learned about Sim from watching Arturo and Filipino Champ play:
Dhalsim can easily AA Moonsault Slash with st.LP. Not a lot of damage (30) but st.LP is incredibly fast (3f startup according to Gilley’s frame data) so it’s an easy punish. From far he can use cr.MP. Up close, he can low profile LK slide and punish MS on whiff with b.MK xx Yoga Flame. Lesson to learn here is that MS should be used sparingly.
Dhalsim also has some nasty meaty setups.
He’s got a meaty slide setup after forward throw, which can be done anywhere on-screen but works the best in the corner. After a forward throw, Sim whiffs st.LP to frame kill, then does an immediate meaty cr.MK. It leaves Sim at +2/+6, which is enough frame advantage for him on block to stuff any button that Nash can press and enough frame advantage on hit to link into b.MK xx Yoga Flame. Not much Nash can do about the meaty cr.MK. Backdash will get hit before Nash even goes airborne, cr.LP will eat a CH, and V-Trigger will get stuffed on startup. He either has to gamble with wakeup Judgment Saber or V-Reversal the cr.MK. On the plus side, Sim can’t apply a true mixup after the meaty cr.MK unless he is in the corner. Anything shorter than his st.LK will whiff after blocked cr.MK.
Sim also has aIA Yoga Gale setupin the corner that puts him at approximately +13. Setup was done using the cracked Beta so I don’t know if the numbers are still accurate but it’s probably still got ridiculous frame advantage. Didn’t get to take this setup to the lab but it looks like Nash is going to have to hold it as well.
I find the MU to be pretty rough for Nash, but Killey’s overview of the MU above is a good batch of information.
One tech I really liked in the Sim MU was Li Joe’s neutral jump HK against the teleports. It requires a good read, but Nash’s air somersault hits about a complete 180° in the air so it will hit a Sim teleporting behind you, and give you a free juggle state followup.
I recorded some CC setups / confirms for the Sim MU on day 2. These setups might not be that realistic to happen, but all it requires is for Sim to throw out a limb without having a fireball currently covering the air. And a good read / reaction on the Nash player’s side.
I double checked that LI Joe vs Arturo match as well as training mode to see if Sim could slide under EX Moonsault midway through. That actually doesn’t happen in that match and it looks like EX Moonsault forms a true block string because I was mashing slide against it and could not slide in between the hits. If I was allowed and I screwed up the timing then I should at least see a counter hit happen but I was stuck in block stun for the entire duration of EX Moonsault. That being said Sim can slide underneath all of the Moonsaults before they actually hit.
Sim is probably the main matchup you cannot approach conventionally.
Mostly stay on the ground and NO MOONSAULTS. A competent Sim player will blow you up for every attempt. His s.LP is a 3 frame anti-air, c.LK will slide under Moonsaults for free. Even after getting hit with a s.HP, he can slide under if you cancel into Moonsault. They can also opt to s.LP, but one of the guys I play with will do slide under, b+MK xx Flame to punish the landing recovery. Every. Single. Time. Even Moonsault used as a corner escape he can still tag you with a limb. Unless the Sim player doesn’t know the matchup, using a Moonsault will basically hand him back the initiative in a match. It’s not really worth it.
Boom spacing has to be pretty tight as well. Poorly spaced Booms can get reacted to with s.HP. I usually stick to LP, MP and EX Booms outside of knockdown situations, the HP Boom startup is easier to react to. If they’re using Float to avoid projectiles, you can tag Sim with an Air-to-Air or EX Scythe depending on distance.
Also, something I’ve been labbing up against his Teleports.
If a Sim does IA Teleport, j.HP in neutral, a slightly delayed s.HP will CC any of Sim’s buttons, and more importantly, you can reliably CC hit confirm the s.HP into MP Tragedy Assault since s.HP can actually be late cancelled. Instead of a mediocre s.LP air reset, you get a beefy 200+ damage combo and steal around 33% of a bar. You can also use EX Tragedy Assault to get the VTrigger followup and even more damage.
Good catch. Made the necessary corrections in my original post. Note to self: don’t post on SRK or watch match vids at ungodly hours of the night.
i always used st.lp on sims ia teleport. but from now on i am gonna do st.hp instead, thanks
Updated my post to correct my inaccuracies on interpreting the frame data on Sim’s Yoga Fire.
Great job Killey, especially on that wealth of Sim info. I’ve really been struggling against good Sims
I didn’t see a match making thread. I’m a Dhalsim player, If anyone wants to get some long set’s to practice the match up let me know.
USA SE Region FID Clark_D_Skylark
Apparently this assclown can super between your lp>mk target combo if the first hit is blocked; I figured it would be a blockstring; I guessed wrong.
there is no tc with lp and mk
Im trying to jab Sim players out of their teleport, but my timing seems to be off every single time like hm
You mean when he teleports behind you during neutral?
Killey was spot on with dealing with his Teleport fp. Just get the timing down to crush it with st.hp followed mp assault. Don’t settle for the jab
No reason why st.Jab should ever miss once they teleport.
Someone suggested st.HP but it’s possible to react too late and eat a full combo.
Unless this Sim player is teleporting from a jump - making your jab whiff? In that case I would jump throw.