One button dodge isn’t even like this new thing, it’s been around for a while. DMC1 didn’t go that route for reasons that are obvious if you pay any fucking attention at all to what you’re doing when playing a game. Everything is based on that shit. It’s why gravity is so high, why Helmbreaker is the main Triangle attack in the air, and a bunch of enemy specific tactics use it. Fucking morons are so busy mashing through without trying to think about how to play with any sort of strategy or skill.
1 Like
I think, at the very least, the tutorial could have mentioned that jumping is your primary means of avoiding damage and that jumps are partially invincible. It’s easy for vets to just not think much of it since they’ve been playing DMC games forever, but letting new players know from the start would probably be helpful.
A lot of the players you’re angry at are new to DMC as well as action games and/or didn’t start playing action games until the meta was having a dedicated Dodge button. Besides older games I can’t even think of a modern game that has dodging tied to the jump button.
We also don’t need a tutorial to tell them how to dodge or that jumping has i-frames. This shit should be discovered by the player. At least that’s what I’d like to think. However the new generation gets spoonfed information so I understand why “discovery” isn’t something they’d be interested in.
With DMC5 there’s like three generations of gamers all sharing the same room. It’s going to be chaotic until the actual DMC players share their information with them.
That information needs to be in the tutorial. If jumping has other uses than the game should inform the player of it. Understanding the basics shouldn’t be left to discovery.
To be fair, breathing through the nose, much less the game of life, is too hard for 99% of resetera.
2 Likes
See the thing is… If you teach them about I-frames during the start up of jump you then have to teach them what invincibility frames are as well as what they mean when they’re talking about frames. That’s why developers leave it to the community to teach them that stuff because there’s more to it then saying you can’t get hit whwn you press the jump button.
Holding lock on + jump while holding left or right is a dodge and I’m pretty sure the demo/game tells you this. 99% of ResetEra plebs are just shit at games.
Saying that learning that jumping has invul should be left up to discovery doesn’t make much sense to me. It’s a jump button. It’s likely that most players aren’t going to figure this out because why would anyone assume that jumping does anything other than jump. It’s probably safe to say that even if someone figured out jumping was a good defensive mechanic, they probably won’t even understand WHY it’s a good defensive mechanic. You don’t even have to tell a new player anything about invincibility frames and what that means; all you need to tell them is that jumping is a good way to avoid attacks.
If we look at games like Dark Souls and Bayonetta, they mention nothing about invincibility frames and only tell you the bare minimum about what dodging does (or it’s very self explanatory). It’s not hard for a new player to figure out that the dodge button does exactly what it says: dodge enemy attacks. While DMC games do have a dodge, seasoned players know that jumping is better in most situations. It wouldn’t hurt to tell the player that jumping is a good way to avoid enemy attacks. If you think telling a player what a basic action/button does is spoonfeeding, then I’m not sure what kind of life you live.
1 Like
It the game doesn’t need to explain invincibility frames. Inform the player they are invincible until the peak of their jump and can it be useful in avoiding attacks. Simple and easy.
It does make sense because jumping is something you use throughout the fucking game and by simply playing the game you will discover that some attacks, specifically horizontal ones but also vertical attacks will small hit boxes can be avoided by jumping. You don’t need to explain shit unless you’re going to explain everything, and if you really think otherwise than you’re the same as those Resetera players.
And you guys are really overratting how good the invincibility frames are because there are a fuckton of moves that cannot be avoided by abusing jump i-frames even if you perfectly time it. Jumping out of the way isn’t the same as jumping so that a move does not connect with the characters hit box. Telling the player that they can avoid attacks by jumping without explaining the properties and usefulness of those i-frames is straight up misleading. Because then you get a bunch of resetera type players complaining about getting hit when they jumped and then someone like myself has to come in and explain the shit you claim doesn’t need to be explained to them.
And yeah it’s hand holding which is the complete opposite of DMC from a design point of view.
You are overthinking this. Letting the player know that jump has defensive properties isn’t the same as getting detailed frame data for fucking everything. No one is overrating anything. No one here talked about jumping as an end all defensive option.
Agreed. It’s not like dodging in Dark Souls and Bayonetta is an end all defensive mechanic either. Knowing when and where to dodge often plays a part when playing the game. The hate boner for Resetera is way too strong here. Telling a player that jump can be used defensively doesn’t dumb down the game and doesn’t ruin your personal enjoyment of the game if you already knew this. People gotta chill out.
1 Like
I wonder if DMC V will have a special mission where you have to avoid attacks using only the jump’s I-frames? Mini games that isolate mechanics are my favorite way of showing off mechanics that would be overlooked or not even thought of.
I’m betting if SRK now, was as active as it was before, we’d be seeing the same replies of “the jump has invincibility on start-up?! It can be used as a dodge?!” That era thread has people posting up their YT channles with detailed info on the Devil Breakers as well as Enemy Step, and the jump being used as a dodge.
Nah. I won’t accept Capcom giving misleading information through a brief description about a certain mechanic. And it CAN be explained through frame data to a new player by placing them in the training mode turning on hit boxes have each hit box be a different color and having the player avoid X amount of attacks using only the i-frames tied to Jumping aka tutorial mode. MGR kinda does that by having GOLD and RED type of incoming attacks letting the player know at all times when it’s time to block, dodge, or parry and yet idiots still had a hard time with that. So you can fuck off with your half-assed descriptions for gameplay mechanics SPECIFICALLY FOR NEW PLAYERS that leads to the shit in that resetera thread.
Frame data would be too much overkill for this type of game even. The color-coded part works, but that doesn’t mean Capcom can’t have a little tutorial, much like Bayonetta’s dodge tutorial in the beginning, of the game too high light the jump’s utility.
They could go fighting game tutorial in the game, but a little nudge in the right direction can do a lot. It’s on the player to go further into it not matter how detailed something can be explained.
I don’t see it misleading. There’s people in that era thread that are thinking about putting “You can dodge with jump” as the header or something to that effect, in their main thread for the game.
How is it misleading? You said it yourself, you can use it to avoid horizontal attacks and minor vertical ones. Why does it matter that it can’t avoid everything? That’s what the other defensive options are for.
I’m shocked you care about how new players will interpret mechanics since your so adamantly against any game teaching it’s players how to play it.
This attitude isn’t just against DMC though, it’s against any game that is even slightly different from the perceived norm. In this case it’s no dodge button, in another case it’s no block, in another case it’s fucking attacks having recovery animation. Like what the fuck, how can you complain about attack recovery. It’s like people are retarded.
3 Likes
DMC1 does do this. It never says it has iframes but it encourages using jump to dodge the entire time.
Shit, another reason the combat design of DMC1 is so superior lol
2 Likes
Did two run throughs of the Demo. Decided to throw em up on the Yourube channel.
Second one was a bit longer then 15 minutes so i lost the first two fights. Oh well.
Lol, I can’t tell if you’re trolling or serious with these videos. For years I’ve seen you write negative comments about DMC3 and DMC4’s combat mechanics and enemy design while also speaking on technical things related to those games that you truly don’t understand or never personally executed and/or experimented with them yourself to the point I truly believed you hated current DMC and stayed away from these games. But I guess you’re only playing the demo because it’s FREE. Then again I remember you from your post on PhantomBabies, lol.