I feel like every post I can make in this thread is incomplete and will only lead to more questions
Flowchart gets a bad rep as a term. I think this is because what people think of as Flowchart is only rinse and repeat 3 options.
but if you look at the term Flowchart, it doesn’t need to be interpreted this way.
A good example of a flow chart is:
Duds dart short hits standing or gets guarded:
Option A go for throw, Option B back swing blow, Option C jump, Option D fish for a parry, Option E low short short
an example with ken vs shotos is: jab shoryu connects
Option A dash twice for okizeme, Option B dash and then jump cross up Option C dash and then jump but throw when landing, Option D dash then jump but low short short when landing
Another example is ken does 2 low shorts but it gets guarded vs chun:
Option A low forward, Option B wait to bait out a Hopkick, etc etc
You get the idea I think. Their is a flow chart aspect to the game but maybe a better term that has less of a negative connotation is having a “decision/option tree”?
If you don’t know what your options are from a set point and what the opponent can do then you need to study the game or think more.
The problem with flowchart isn’t that it seems to limit the players, it’s what it causes to “seep” into the mind of the player. A player immersed in his own flowchart will miss out on the breadth of the opponents attacks and only look to string onto his own flow from within theirs. This means that if he is playing a ken that does low short low short wait low forward he can known to parry the low forward. That is why it is bad to be flowchart. It makes you predictable. To put it into a simple analogy, a flowchart player is a schmoozer. No content, all talk for the sake of activity. It’s cute that you can see life that way but we’re meant for much more, I believe. Flowchart players don’t typically notice the opponent and won’t acknowledge them. This is typical of Chun Li players because Chun Li’s style is very arrogant ( and understandably so seeing as her normal sets hit everything and its prime ), so they don’t even need to know the specifics of your attack, the positioning, none of it. They just see your stepped over the line on the ground and start their routine.
Like I said earlier and to reiterate what Yuuki here said too, a flowchart SHOULD be your fundamental game-plan, whereas your actual game-plan is extended on the spot according to the things that your “flowchart” allows your person. This makes it possible to do things like parry, know you have a sick frame advantage and look to create a new situation while they aren’t paying attention. 
As for if it’s a negative term or not. To have a flow chart is to say you are organized in your thoughts but it doesn’t imply execution. So, a player with a sick flowchart could have a really shit time pulling off supers and so you wouldn’t be able to tell he’s any good. You’d call his play flowcharty when he has decided to forego the super and just grab instead after catching a parry. Parry grab on wake up is very common in flowchart styled play. Which brings to mind the fact that having a flowcharty style of play doesn’t really denote a flowchart either, but rather a tendency to go to the next easy thing to do because you aren’t up to speed. It recently picked up a bad rep because I guess some people read back and decided to take up that as their next subtly derogatory term but it was usually meant to denote someone that knew what he was doing, and you were probably only rationalizing a loss, but that y ou didn’t feel they were in control of the situation. You couldn’t tell that they were there because it was all too autonomic. Every uppercut followed by 3 steps to whiff strong OS grab dash short short super OS low parry etc etc. So it was like a program was running on the other end and not a person. Programs are often defined as flowcharts, etc, etc, you get the picture. Most people just don’t know that it has such a breadth of connotation to it, or they know it very well, and just use it the way you would bad winner, scrubby win, masher, turtle. You know, talk from the losing side because it does matter despite what the commentator says.
I like your line of reasoning, djdw. You play any sports in particular?
i havent played any sports recently but i am a fan of baseball, basketball, and football…boxing and ufc sometimes
the way to getting over a good flowchart is akin to catching up to a fair fly out in mid right field and opting to take out the guy running for third instead of the one on first. Shall we stomp his greed/innovation or go for the easy out that really was just meant to be a diversion and hope we can keep him from making it home.
#4 - Being gay. Gay’s not a banned word yet. Well that’s a stupid way to say it. how about this.
Don’t turn into “this guy.” He may not exist but it is a stereotype
When you reach the top of GGPo what else is there to do? Continue to play the best guy and get better? Do you help the next guy, get more people to your level or fuck em that he didn’t put in the work you did?
Is it more fun to laugh at people? Some people do that rather than get better. All there is left to do, overlook the barrel of monkeys-while not knowing you are one, same as console players do to the weirdoes there, yes sometimes.
Hold your position as I can beat guys online too. Hah online.
You want to beat everyone who is online? Or do you want to beat everyone who is good? What happens when you beat everyone you know who is good and you can play. Just hang it up now.
you might be able to beat everyone you play but never play someone better than you. “too broke, fuck japan yo” “there are good players outside japan” “we all can’t be in arcade next door land” “japan uses ggpo too, look!”
Another online hardass. Get in line.
“I beat you” “I can beat you” Rather than “Everybody can get better.” “I’m still not where I want to be”
Like settling for less. Dreaming can be stupid. Being practical and conservative can be smart. Sure.
Had a better way to say it, earlier, forgot to write it down.
You can both be right. He only used 12 words where we would use 1200 and 2. That’s just how he said it, less words leaves room for interpretation.
Shit repeating myself.
Spoiler
Leave room for mistakes, like not just make them make mistakes. Here’s what I was thinking when he said that, “wtf is he saying I didn’t say that” feel free to correct since you know more, but said less! I know to Dander, you may not, just let me and Dander talk to a standstill, laugh at it from afar, but in the case of knowing more, its better to tell everybody rather than get bogged down on telling me I’m an idiot for not knowing - what you mean so you went there on that, nice. You can clarify without putting down, wasting time stopping conversation.
I think he means, less of force mistakes, than yeah a little of that low forward talk, Dander! But not in the way you might think, but you never explained why you hate that button, more that it could be midscreen don’t want to get in footsies poking around, is what I narrowed it down to. My crap play and you noticed others doing that too.
And as simple as I understand the game, point holes in all my ideas about this exchange, whatever, when adding to it, pointing out better things that would be better, sure, bring it.
Corner pressure, lets say Yang and Ken in the corner.
Being right in Ken’s face would be a mistake. “Proper spacing” is said all the time. Proper spacing so you can do this, that, and more. Why be at this perfect range, not so much.
Lets say you’re at a range where it might look like the Ken player can low forward, he’ll consider that option. Yeah even when if he has room and time for that, he could probably jump out. But he’s going to use low forward.
Yang can block and full punish slashes.
Be within that range, inside the space a low forward goes, parry and punish/start offense like low parry which will cover low strong too, close forward launch and go from there.
Or, his quick standing short to stuff anything ken might want to throw out, no need to wait to block it or parry it, yes outside of special moves, but even then, if its not meaty, and part of yang approaching and making him block. It can stuff a low forward/other things and go into EX slash for example.
Allowed him space to make a mistake. One low forward press. And damn he is going to feel bad when it didn’t work and he played right into your hands, if he considered that a mistake more than, already in the corner dead, have to fight out, with something. Resorting to combo starter from a low, maybe Yang screwed up and left himself open low, and didn’t control the corner. And Ken both fought back and got out.
Or
for a more direct, maybe better understood example
Yun looking to open someone up. with Geneijin, lets say midscreen. I watched cr short ticks being blocked and Chun threw him. His mistake, if you can call it that, was walking too long between them, he needs to push forward to negate the pushback, but that can be autopiloted. Chun can go from crouch block right to throw, right? As in holding low guard and finding an opening, even as risky as it is? Left open even just the 2 frames after blockstun, startup necessary for throw.
If its important, well it is if anyone wants to watch it again, watch for it. Eric Chin Yun vs Amir Chun LA SF25
950 words. i don’t care if nobody reads it, ill read it back later, for my own understanding and maybe the bump this good thread means more discussing.
Flowchart with more options is better than the flowchart stereotype with like, one option=
SHORYUKEN
That’s where most people are going to hear the word, as a negative term for that joke.
Because everybody decides what to do next based on what they saw. What just happened in the game.
And think, like do I do this or this, and why 1 vs the other, even in a split decision they have to decide fast.
You guys think this thread is good and done? And I explained it in more words because djdw took the time to come over to srk and got an answer from exo instead of actually asking exo on the chat. It’s not like they’re not all there all the time. He easily could’ve asked him. Maybe he wanted a more referential treatment than one he could think to rely on? I also don’t want him getting too caught emotionally because it’s not exactly necessary and bitches is crazy.
exo wasnt on at the time…why u mad yo?
It’s strange reading newspaper articles about stuff I say. It’s like reading something written on those sports magazines.
“That’s just how he said it, less words leaves room for interpretation.”
I’ve always skimmed over quite literally everything AKUMAHAX says because most of the time, I have a difficult time piecing everything he says together with a coherency that does not require too much energy. But that line right there…I’ve never had anyone understand so concisely what I said! I like him so much more now!
The reason I choose not to go into specifics is because I want Deku to think about things in order to see how scenarios would fall into any of those blanket statements. Bruce Lee said be water. He elaborated a bit, sure, but the statement alone should make the recipient think about what types of situations would encompass “being water”. Deku’s pretty bad at it, but if he’s going to learn, he needs to learn the best way, which is forcing him to think. For instance…
“2.) allow your opponent the opportunity to make mistakes.”
We won’t talk about the opponent fucking up their execution, but that’s clearly something that works in your favor.
If you are facing your opponent, and you choose to stand outside of throw range and do nothing other than option parry down back as they get up, you allow them to guess. Whether it is an input parry (a mathematically horrible guess), a jump (you can react to it), a wake up move (you can punish it), or nothing at all (situation remains unchanged, momentum in your favor). All of these are passive aggressive pressure you can apply that allows your opponent to make a mistake.
Training your opponent with visual cues is another way to allow them to make mistakes, but a more aggressive approach. Walking forward but stopping short of throw range baits them to throw, allowing you to punish. Whiffing a move late on their wake up can oftentimes lead them to attempt to parry the afterimage of the move (more online than offline, of course).
Mixing your offense with highs and lows and throws, barraging them with a combination of decidedly random moves that are quick, safe, and frustrating (think about Dudley corner pressure with his various assortment of normals that are hard to punish without guess parrying). Outside of the most disciplined, the opponent will usually get flustered and attempt to break the chain, which results in a mathematical favor for you.
And on and on and on…The point is that there are so many specific scenarios that fit that rule, but the entire purpose of a rule is to cover all of them under its roof. Whenever you play, any time you think to yourself “FUCK” or “WHOOPS”, it’s usually a result of a mistake on your part. Reverse the role, make your opponent say those things over and over again. When you go into specifics, you lose sight of how to learn. When you teach a fledgling Yun Genei Jin, it will be detrimental to them and they will undoubtedly lose much more than win.
‘alright, that makes sense’
Request for cheat sheet 
backhanded compliment
street ball legend
These used to be truly ridiculous
“Your game is like your girl, soft”
Spoiler
http://cdn.sulitstatic.com/images/2010/1130/01170411_and1wantads2.jpg
“My game is tighter than your mom’s wig”
or
“you have a light, you’re about to get smoked” do not compare.
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kwo3ptzqyr1qzgajw.png
Ok now that one is more direct than you figure it would be. :lol:
Sometimes people say, the point of college is not only learning knowledge but learning to think for yourself.
what would go in 3rd strike college? well because of a los angeles angle, more kobe stuff! Teacher Kobe.
He could tell them until they’re blue in the face, or until he’s red in the face. But since he already knows its a process, that they have to do themselves, he’s not going to try to force it - on them and get worse results and maybe lose his student.
They either get it or they don’t. He’s hoping they maximize what they have at least, recognize the best things they do - to keep doing them, and hoping they get even better, once they break thru their own limits.
Call it going to the next level, or breaking thru their ceiling, stepping up past their plateau, breaking out of a slump, whatever.
Dudley can dominate someone based on hitting hard and just like 3 combos alone to win a round, right?
What if that Dudley not only wants to land hits and win, but make it so that he can win easier with knowledge and taking away things from the other player? Trying to make sure everything he does hits. After those hits it keeps them in a prime position for him to finish them off with no way out.
That article ending in old Michael Jordan comparisons, not as glorious.
Maybe a what not to do? It wasn’t all positive. MJ’s last run. #1 Draft Pick High School guy.
Spoiler
Or maybe even, he wants to be a get in your face Michael Jordan on the wizards teacher too!
oh man the stories for jordan giving it to kwame brown. kwame brown wanting to play videogames, maybe not the best analogy for this place but because he did in the locker room, what jordan thought was lazy childish things like that, head not in the real game, & he called him the f word on the last page. just broke that guy’s spirit and maybe ruined his career since nothing would be good enough. He was getting yelled at, by the best player to ever play the game, who settled for nothing less than winning. Which didn’t work for his Wizards. Never made the playoffs in 2 seasons.
Kobe later embarassed the crap out of kwame, in a parking lot interview, “Who? come on give me and the lakers a real center” and during a game where he was making bad plays, went to kwame brown passing it to him over and over, when he definitely could have just did whatever he wanted and got his own shot. Kwame was glad to see a timeout after the ball went out of bounds. That was something to remember. The fuck was that for?
To show his teammate wasn’t good, get some new ones, management. Look at this fuckin guy. Look who I’m working with. Maybe not the best approach either. Kobe being Kobe.
I like the discussion of game theory/decision making. might as well discuss some more, seems pretty worthwhile.
Chun-Ken. from Chun’s perspective here’s what I think:
Chun should never spend bar round 1 unless it will kill and she absolutely needs it (close life situation where she risks losing round 1 for saving it)
in footsies and up close situations Ken is at advantage until Chun has a bar.
Ken must win round 1 to win. so it behooves him to play really aggressive and be willing to take risks round 1. round 2 and 3 he must play more cautiously.
think those are all accurate?
here’s some questions about the matchup:
when should Ken use meter and when should he save it?
does Ken need to reliably whiff punish Chun low forward to stand a chance of winning?
how should both players play the knockdown in the corner game?
Thank you Zeus
How about you better more reputable players spend some time on the match ups we don’t know all about.
So what if I’m bitching at you? It’s true.
nothing to add but I like lance’s post. just discussing mindset open ended is very helpful! my chun-ken is very poor (like all my secondary characters lol)
Don’t mind me, I’ll see my way out. Chicken or Beef?
here’s some questions about the matchup:
when should Ken use meter and when should he save it?
Honestly I don’t think ex moves are that useful in this matchup much. I hate how many ken players do low mk ex fireball cuz they don’t know what else to do. It’s a waste and as a chun player it gives me some breathing space. For jinrai it can be useful both ways. Watch Matsuken and see how he always wants to get just enough for ded. It’s practical and smart. Even tho it’s so obvious it still works!! IMO ken builds meter fast. It’s ok to use jinrai. I like to have at least one stock so I carry fear factor.
does Ken need to reliably whiff punish Chun low forward to stand a chance of winning?
He should be able to. I know it’s not simple but if it’s punishes sometimes then chun has to think more instead of just being a bully.
how should both players play the knockdown in the corner game?
Guard jump helps but can be baited if the opponent is smart. Ken has a damaging combo in tc shoryu shoryu. That’s the scariest. If Chuns crouching that’s mad dmg. Chun can’t do anything without meter so ken can take risks on wakeup. Chun should be more solid.
And kens MUST taunt post jinrai in the corner. It’s so scary!!!