I haven’t seen a thread about this recently. I was hoping to collect some good data from this.
So to kick things off I know systems usually go with the type of fighter etc. But in general what are good defensive options for a fighting game and why? What are some of the pros and cons?
I remember reading somewhere that parrying broke sf3 because it was a really skewed risk reward ratio or something like that. It was from a viscant post.
He said it turned every character into a semi grappler or something. I can’t exactly quote it and I’m not trying to put words in his mouth.
Oh, I thought you were talking about like a REAL defensive system… like for your house.
A buddy of mine bought 5 Kinects and uses them as a Security System for the place. Shit is crazy, it detects like fuckin’ anyone and when it caps the images of what it’s looking for, it’s so damn clear. And it matches faces with people on facebook, so if burglars have a facebook account, they’re done.
I’m sorry, what were you talking about?
Oh yeah, I agree that SF3 is broken.
What system did people like the best though? Like Alpha Counters, or just defend etc, what were some of the good and bad points of having a defensive option like that in those games?
It’s really pointless to discuss these things in a vacuum. These mechanics are successful depending on how they interact with the other mechanics in the game. Burst is a great mechanic, but obviously doesn’t have a place in more traditional fighting games.
And do you really want to drudge up the anti parrying discussion? It’s only been done 10^99999 times on this site. All that ever happens is people paraphrase Viscant to make themselves feel like an enlightened video game critic.
It’s not about parrying, it was about defensive options as a whole. I understand that yes this is a bit of a vacuum, but it would still be nice to know what was good and why it was good in that particular instance.
In arcana you could theoretically do pressure strings that are like A-B-C-Special, with the special creating a frame trap AND being + on block and moves you forward. However, forward guard cancel helps you deal with a lot of the really strong pressure. It gives you a little golden shield for a bit as you move forward out of blockstun, and if an attack happens, a clash occurs. So, if they didnt cancel anything, you get punished. Even if they did, you still have to make a good guess in the clash battle afterwards. I liked this because it was more straight up interesting than normal alpha counters. Plus, meter is reallllly quick to get in that game. Back guard cancel is sort of like cancelling into a backdash with a ton of invincibility but then you end up homing into their face after the backdash. So, slightly different as far as timing/baiting/etc, but also different from a straight up alpha counter.
Forward guard cancel especially was designed very specifically for arcana, because of how clashing is a lot bigger/integral in that game, how pressure is designed, etc.
Honestly any thats available that isn’t game breaking/
[details=Spoiler]
Guard/ Air guard,
Alternative guard/just/instant,
Guard cancel or the equivalent,
Backdash,
C.C.CCOMBO breaker(exclusively killer instinct)
Breaking (exclusive to breaker revenge series)
Tech grab/soften grab
Wake up/ reversal
Amour/ Auto gaurd/ Amour points
Air tech/ Air recovery
Ground tech/ Evasive roll
Projectile Nullify er
Attack clash (not trade)
Burst
Parry or the equivalant
Counter
Counter commands
Health regenerate.[/details]
This is just xfactor cancel in motion. Its one using the ability to cancel as a defsnive tool. Again not defense nature in it self. Xfactor cancel anything besides hitstune & knockdown because your not in complete control at that time.
As i said its enhancer that can be use as one. Also if correct it doesn’t outright negate chip damage but since health is recovery as fast as damage is being dealt, they negate each other to a stale mate (block damage wise).
while I’m not trying to ague x factor usage in defense. I’m simply stating its not a true defensive option by its core nature. Its just has dominant use in defensive manner or comebacks.
The Viscant posts get more love than they should imo. Great ST/Marvel player but doesn’t know (or didnt’ anyway when he made the posts) jack about SF3. Most of the people who jock ride those posts are people that don’t play 3s. But in other news…
Heh, in my ongoing attempt to design a FG-style combat system intended for an online game that has up to 500ms ping, what are some defensive mechanics that don’t rely on reaction speed?
I guess defensive stances, rolls and backdashes are often used pre-emptively so they might count.
(This is what I was meaning to ask, like how it applies in that specific game and is it good or bad, so more post like these are extremely insightful)
So I know next to nothing about Arcana, I only have my overwhelming love for Petra and her drill hair, that aside AH is a very offensive oriented game I guess.
Well I guess I can get into more specifics which would help out greatly. I’m developing a fighter with a group of people, and we wanted this to be a really quick paced game, more importantly we wanted the game to revolve around:
Wake up options
Space Control
Controlled Aggression
Momentum
We really want this to be a momentum based offensive oriented fighter. Like if you worked your butt off to put your opponent into a bad position, we want to reward you for that like you would get better damage options, better spacing etc. But at the same time we want the opponent to be able to fight back from a bad spot like that and reset the situation to neutral (the best case scenario), or bring it to a slightly more manageable position.
This is why I’m asking for example of defensive options being used in fighting games today.
I feel like if we added something like Alpha Counters or Parrying into a game like that it would break the feel of what we were trying to make. Like Alpha Counters feels like a get out of jail free card simply because of the blow back and the ability to Counter the crap out of anything (Meter gain is really quick in this game)
And Parrying(SF3 style parrying) feels like it would just instantly turn the tables and just turn the match into who is better at parrying.
I do like the idea of Guard Canceling and Tech Rolls. I feel like it would definitely add to a fast paced fighter.
Gaurd impact system similar to the one used in SC1…easily the best implementation of a “parry” style defensive option(in my opinion)
Dodge/SS/evasion defensive techniques are nice also
Well Evasion was okay, but at the same time it really doesn’t lead to much as far regaining momentum goes, like in Kof 98, dodging wasn’t that great, you were stuck in place and you could only dodge so much. Meanwhile, rolling did everything that dodging did, but much better, and it allowed you to punish a lot things characters could do.
To be honest I wouldn’t know what to recommend. You clearly have a prefer way of the game operating. You can still add any mechanic sand strive for the game you desire. Its really a matter of how you desihgned them.
Personally maybe you just want guard, tech grab and maybe back dash with some invincibility. Possibly roll but it seems you really want this game to have who ever mounts the offense to have an on going advantage and i think roll will be counter productive.
To be fair the Extra system in it self was really weak on kof98. How ever when KOF 98um allow custom. Many people use dodge with run. Extra was limited to step which was not good combination with dodge.