Dee Jay's New Low Crush

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
21

What Deleye said.

His slide is very space dependant; it has to be PERFECT EVERY SINGLE TIME. Far standing forward (or medium kick, whatever the fuck nigguhs is callin’ it now) can be focused if not spaced correctly (this move has weird spacing in order to get the two hits out of it. Just outside of cl.st.mk). He has to be played like Guile except that he doesn’t have good buttons like Guile. He doesn’t have the recovery on his fireball like Guile. He doesn’t even have a stay away from me normal like Guile has (cr.mk for Guile).

22

What Kdash430 and Deleye said.

And also…I try not to play him like Guile but sometimes it depends on the match and opponent…plus the design of the character is a poor man’s…no he’s a fricken absolutely broke man’s Guile.
Guile’s standing and crouching fierce are 10times better than Deejay’s. Those tools are scary…stay away from me normals that have priority. Deejay’s fierce punches (cr and standing) will almost always trade at certain distances(almost never in his favor) unless someone is supper close jumping in on you or they are trying to empty jump from far to avoid slide AA after air slasher.

23

I will mess around more in the lab. I tend to land anti-air cr. roundhouse no problem, and I don’t slide at people a lot when they are grounded because that’s just stupid. Cr. Strong and Cr. Fierce don’t trade nearly as often for me as often as you guys are saying, but I’ll assume you’re correct, as you all play more Deejay than I.

Outside of this, again, what is Low Crush? How does the system work? EX.MGU tend to lose to meaty low attacks on wake up and I am not sure if it is a timing issue or what. I understood that it was a similar behavior to low crush moves in SFXT.

24

Of course it is…it’s a very bad habit and I’m not implying any Deejay should play like that…but fact of the matter is…u will slide at some point for whatever reason when your playing Deejay.

25

it is. except in SFxT its more of a crush “crouching” moves.

low crush here means it has a hurtbox that is invul to moves classed as “low” or even have low enough hitboxes.

yes it’ll still get stuffed at times, but if it CAN work at times, im down.

not a golden find, but pretty good. :slight_smile:

26

I guess my issue with Cr. Roundhouse vs. grounded opponents isn’t an issue with the move itself. It’s great in application for option selects vs. backdashes, and again, I beat a vast majority of jump-ins with it. I take issue with Deejay players insisting that Deejay has bad zoning tools. I beat shoto Cr. Forward with Cr. Strong all day, and Deejay’s Cr. Forward beats Shoto Cr. Forward and Cr. Roundhouse clean AND is a hard Knockdown, which sets up his wake-up bullsh*t. My limited Deejay experience, as limited as it may be, is painting a radically different picture of the character than what I’m hearing from many Deejay players, and I think that is because so many Deejay players want strong zoning, like Guile, but fail to see that Deejay is NOT a pure zoning character. He has the tools to zone well, but he’s a hybrid design, which demands a different rhythm and play style. I don’t think he can win by zoning alone, he has to zone then apply pressure. There’s more risk and reward inherent in his design, and THAT can’t really be negotiated from a “damage per exchange” point of view. He’s not going to win just throwing poor-man’s booms, and he’s not going to win simply rushing down or at mid-range zoning. He has to be played as an active mix of archetypes based on the rather eclectic nature of his move set, walk speed, dash properties, and pressure-focused wake-up options.

I guess I’m trying to say that Deejay is this way by design. He simply can’t have an answer for all situations, nor can he play to only one aspect of his overall game plan. He needs to flow through the whole gamut of options and ranges to fully benefit from his move set/options.

It’s weird, I’m really interested in picking Deejay up more seriously, as he is really, really interesting as a character, from a design stand point.

Anyway, bunch of tests today had me beating all kinds of silly shoto footsie tools clean, and although I can agree that Deejay is far from a zoning machine, he can zone his ass off well enough to set up his offense which is exactly what I’d expect. He’s not simply a crappy version of a great zoning character, he is using aspects of zoning/projectile zoning archetypes within his own play style, stopping short of defining him in that category, but supplying him with enough options to play that game if need be, but his offense requires that some risks be taken to maximize rewards.

It’s a seriously interesting character type, and I want to research it further.

27

I like your attitude and insight HAMMER FRENZY. I feel the same way. I have nowhere near the experience of most of the folks lamenting about Dee Jay’s poor options, but I have found what you have said to be true – you need to play both sides of the coin you are given, and usually anyone who engages in the same style as you forces you to change your hand, which is where stubborn players can get the short end of the stick. His normals seem strong to me, but comparing him to someone’s normals like Guile who is 100% about strong zoning just doesn’t make sense. Why would Dee Jay have normals just as good as Guiles?

28

I don’t think any Deejay player expects him to have Guile like normals…I was just adding to the point made earlier that he has the worst normals of all the charge characters. Hell…I actually do think these normals
are his best yet of any version of him…but even with these buffs, they are not as good as other charge characters/other characters. You won’t win a poke war against Fei, Rose,Guile, Cammy, Claw, Chun, or Bison…not to mention Rolento it seems. You might get in a few hits…but standing toe to toe…normal for normal… he won’t win as those characters can out poke him for sure.

I actually think Capcom was very close to making this character good when he was still in location-test form…if they keep that version of him(Japanese arcade basically) for Ultra, I could live with his unreliable new EX machine gun…provided he still had the same low invincibility on lk sobat like he used to. That’s the thing they nerfed I’m most upset about right now to be honest. I can live with the low damage output as I have always have.
And some of you guys are still relatively new to this character in the sense that you haven’t played him full time like some of us have over the many iterations.
But I’m looking forward to what you guys come up with in 6months of playing him if you haven’t already. Your enthusiasm is appreciated for sure. If you’re sticking with him after that time and have come across every scenario against the entire cast and still think he’s viable at higher levels of play, then more power to you.
The truth is that I’ve/we’ve seen players come and go with this character(when I lurked back in late Super)…and most of them tried Deejay for a while…some even created tech…but most just moved on or return to the characters they played before.

29

This DJ section is starting to remind me of Capcom Unity. I can’t read this shit anymore. It’s cancerous

30

I’ve only tested it against meaties on wakeup (and it’s garbage there, no matter what anyone says), so I could be missing something here, but how exactly is this different from calling a Ryu fierce shoryu a “low crush?” I mean, there’s a clear difference between pre-Ultra light sobat and trying to uppercut a sweep.

Da Knut, your attitude has literally been the best thing about these threads recently. Don’t stop or else the delusional might take over.

31

Threi said it all, pretty much. It is like calliling a focusable fierce uppercut a “low crush.” The only real use of it is blowing up techs, but off jabs do that much safer. In fact, wouldn’t the decreased startup make it worse for blowing up crouch techs, in addition to the fact that it’s absolutely unsafe? It’ll just be blocked, I’m imagining. I could be wrong, I suppose. I’d say it’s worth testing out in the lab, but really, it’s not even that. It’s just a shit move. Use it for Ultra 2 and in the rare circumstances where it can work as a reversal.

32

You’re right – nevermind everyone! Let’s just get into a complaining circle jerk and call it a day, because actually looking for fruitful discussion is a sin against every player who has played Dee Jay for more than a year and is not tolerated.

Every positive post someone makes about Dee Jay is always met with an overwhelming amount of negative backlash. EX MGU is ass, normals are ass, zoning is ass, everything on Dee Jay is ass, unplayable assness, like a drifting fart without a home. What is the point of you people posting anymore? Every post saying “Well, he has this” is immediately met with “NOPE, DOESN’T MATTER, SUCKS” as if the prior post was saying DEE JAY BEST CHARACTER WORLDWIDE 2014. This “everyone must be convinced DJ is worthless or my mission is not complete!” attitude is fucking unbearable.

Dee Jay had very little wakeup options against low pressure in AE. Now he has 4 frames of invincibility against lows with wakeup EX MGU, but because it doesn’t win against everything it is ass.

What kind of list is that? With a comparison like that, you do expect him do have Guile-like normals. Is that seriously who you are comparing him to, characters with some of the best normals in the game? Who is next on your list – Boxer? Since when are we only meant to walk up to the desired normal range, hammer the buttons, cross our fingers and hope for the best? What happened to baiting wiffs to punish and using your own attacks to push players out? What is this “poke war” nonsense – what happened to actually playing footsies?

Now because I think Dee Jay isn’t complete, useless, total shit, I’m going to be tarred and feathered as a non-believer who has blasphemously preached that Dee Jay is top tier, even though that couldn’t be further from the truth. I can’t wait!

33

See, you are proving my point. That was a classic Capcom Unity post. The misinformation, wack sarcasm, logical fallacy, Continue. This shit is entertaining.

34

Likewise.

35

Poking is a big part of playing footsies. You can’t whiff punish everything …and you gotta have pokes that don’t get beat out to bait people…that’s why all the characters I mentioned can really just get
into deejay’s face and spam shit because they know he doesn’t have the pokes or tools to stop them from playing dumb…that’s the point I was trying to make.
And like I said…all you (new?)guys coming out the woodwork to say Deejay is good and we just don’t know…more power to you like I previously stated. Your enthusiasm is appreciated…and I say this because
I realize that yes…it does seem negative in here to people who are not familiar with the Deejay forum…It can be a downer sometimes and I apologize. But if you were here back in the day(I lurked for like 4 years) and went through all the crap Capcom did to this character…you would understand.
On the contrary… We absolutely love this character believe it or not… that’s why some are so frustrated to see them nerfing a character who was never all that great to begin with. I’m a casual player so it’s all good…but some of the really good Deejays here go to tournaments…probably since SS4. And there is a reason why there aren’t many good Deejay’s placing high in tournaments and it’s not from not trying.

36

So if anyone was still entertaining this low crush idea, I went ahead and wasted my time to try it. As long as the other person doesn’t go for a late active frame meaty, it loses. No it can’t blow up crouch techs. The only success I had in the lab with blowing up crouch techs were counter hits. I used Ryu as the example, 4-frame c.lk. Whenever the c.lk. came out, it beat it or traded with EX MGU.

c.lk meaty and c.mk meaty won most of the time. EX MGU beat c.mk more, but only when Ryu tries to go for final active frame for the meaty, and when he’s point blank. Spaced even a little, and I didn’t get full hits, and despite getting the launcher, I was too far for dash U2.

Basically, and it’s not even necessary for all meaties, delay your meaty slightly against him so that you’re still beating any wakeup light move but not feeding yourself into EX MGU.

So just so there’s no stone unturned, this move is a garbage “low-crush.” I thought that uppercut comparison I made would probably be the case. I was wrong. It really is LESS useable than it was previously, which is kind of predatory considering it was never that good in this role.

fischbs, disregarding your understanding of this character as a whole, let me just say that this “Well, he has this” post is factually wrong. It has been proven wrong in theory by threi, and it would be proven wrong in practice if anyone wanted to waste time uploading footage of it failing to work. That would especially be pointless considering most don’t need to even test this to know that. For what it’s worth, I’m saying now that I tested it, and it’s bad. Worse than before, actually. To humor you, I’ll contain things to this post and tell you that it’s not that it “DOESN’T MATTER” that he has this, but that he ACTUALLY does not have this.

37

The veteran deejay players are determined to turn all new players away.
Deejay does have good tools, because there are few players learning to rely on the ones we are given, it is good that you guys are starting fresh and exploring those tools.
From our experience, they are not enough to keep people out, especially if knocked down. That being said, in any SF game, being knocked down is always going to be bad news.
The property on ex.mcb gives the move an extra three frames of invincibility to low attacks only on startup, meaning, the first six frames are invulnerable to lows, while the first three should be invulnerable to everything. Unfortunately the move starts in six frames, therefore any mid range meaty attack will stuff the move after the first three frames of startup.
Because of that, any player who knows Deejays wakeup options will use mid/high meaty attacks rather than lows, and any player that doesn’t probably doesn’t know the matchup or just uses midrange meaty attacks normally (which most people do).

You guys better stick to the sticky notes on this character forum for information, if you actually interact with anyone it will be a “Did you know that Deejay is terrible?” series of posts, directly or indirectly.

38

That’s how ex MGU works now…

39

I’ve been playing DJ since St, I can confirm, he is poop tier. I’ve tried using different playstyles with him. Nothing works. Nothing feels good. I guess he will just fade into obscurity. Ahh, I miss my Dee Jay. :'l

40

Wasn’t aware cr.mp was a low. It’s a mid. The only way EX MGU is going to beat anything is if –

“As long as the other person doesn’t go for a late active frame meaty, it loses.”

–it’s a late active frame low meaty.

If there are greater than 4 active frames remaining (or anything with active frames during frames 5 and 6 of EX MGU) in the low move you are trying to reversal with EX MGU on wakeup it will get stuffed, it has 4 frames of invincibility towards lows with a 6 frame startup.