Deciding on a SRK standard for DB15

[Toodles]

There are pictures of the inside of Bone Daddy that show exactly that, but there isnt really a need. All switched has one leg that goes to ground, the other to the button/switch in question. No electronics in the stick, just wires from the switch to the correct pin on the db15

Flickr, a Yahoo company

If you’re using a two row db15, I cant think of any reason not to use a neogeo pinout. When I made mine, I used pin 2 for Fierce (Button ‘E’), and 10 for Roundhouse (Button ‘F’). In hindsight, I should have switched those two around, using 2 for F and 10 for E. If you picture the points as its laid out on the connector, it wonderfully simple:

GND
------(Not Used)
But.F
------But.E
But.Sel
------But.Sta
But.D
------But.C
But.B
------But.A
Dir.R
------Dir.L
Dir.D
------Dir.U
+5v

Everything Ive read on the neo-geo forums and SGRepository forums says to use pin 4, as pin 9 is only really used when dealing with mah-jong controllers. If you absolutely has to have 8 buttons, start, and select, you could wire one of the buttons to pin 9, and the other to the metal housing around the connectors. As long as you followed this convention with your encoder boxes, all would work well, and there wouldn’t be any problem using a 15 pin midi extension cable to use this on authentic neogeo machines. I would recommend you be VERY careful using such a setup around a supergun unless you knew the pinout of the supergun for sure.

All of the pins you state you need in the first post are accounted for, so there really isnt a reason NOT to use the neo pinout as a basis. If you decided you didnt neet both a start and select button, or decided you didnt want the +5v, then you’d start to have a reason not to use neo.

[System_1]

I think I already discussed it here:
http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90305

I’m sorry I missed that. I honestly don’t know how I overlooked that thread.

The cat5 route is interesting, but the connectors themselves do not facilitate mounted project boxes in the same way the large D-sub does. Take a look at Toodles’ Bone Daddy T5 mod and you can see a large project box securely mounted to the stick by nothing else but the D-sub itself. Then understand that what most of us want out of this business is the ability to swap system support in an instant, and it becomes clear that D-sub has the advantage.

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The concern with 3 row DB-15 is getting cables that have all 15 pins. I have old SLI cables that have 15, but the serial cable I picked up at a store only had 14.

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Toodles, I’m liking the Neo Geo layout pretty well right now. However, it does cut two buttons, which might be a sticking point for some.

You have a list of alterations that a builder could use to change functionality, but the inherent problem with this thinking is that every builder changes the pinout as they need it, then we haven’t really created a standard at all.

For instance, we must have both start and select in the standard. The select button cannot be removed. You may have a stick that does not use it (and thus limits itself in a small way) but removing it froma PCB box should be unthinkable. A Dreamcast box doesn’t need it, fine, but other sticks will need a select pin for use with PS2 and Xbox. So that channel should be ingnored when not needed, but never replaced.

The Neo Geo pin out has a one unused pin, is this correct? If so, that could be our wild card. I might put a second ground on it for use in a coupla my units, but if you used the same encoder box (w\ 2 grounds) you would not be affected in a negative way.

I would support a 6-button Neo Geo pinout standard.

I do recall there being some ambiguity about one of the pins regarding the actual Neo Geo. I understood one of the pins to commonly be doubled because no one could be sure which pin the signal would be read from. Id this where the wildcard comes from?

[System_1]

Because that adds a ton of needless time and energy. I look at people’s sticks and like their boxes, their art, their construction, but i never go ‘damn I like the way you soldered everything together so I have to redo it 6 months from now’. A hobby is something done primarily for pleasure outside of your job, i can’t remember the last time i gained pleasure rewiring a joystick for no reason other than short sighted planning.

Heh, yeah, you have a point. I had decided a while back only to use FQDs because I have had this problem myself in the past. At least that way I can swap a couple wires if need be. Though doing it often is definitely a pain in the ass and puts a lot of stress on the switches too.

I also challenge the idea of how easy it is to ‘just’ get someone to solder up some pads to a specific requirement. I posted a request in the trading forum for some pads wired to a DB-15 and got no response at all, luckily someone said they could do it but i still don’t know when that’s happening. Had I been asking for something that everyone was used to building already, this would have been solved in a day or even minutes.

We should just be able to say, ok pick whatever stick you want without worrying that it won’t work later, and just get the adaptors for whatever console you want and bam, lag free 100% working joystick, and when the next gen systems come out, theres less of a issue about convertors and such, cause everyone just gets the new cable.

I get the point of the whole discussion and idea here, but I guess my main hang-up is the fact that I’m not sure that even having a standard will guarantee that everyone will use it. People are going to do whatever they want regardless, either out of ignorance or personal preference, and that will mean that this might end up no more helpful than the many stickied threads that so many people choose to ignore. Meaning it’s only of any value to those who choose to bother. I admit I am being pessimistic. I’ll stop.

Also, I don’t see anything wrong with Toodles suggestion either, seeing how it’s actually already an established standard. Well, apart from my preference in using 3-row D-subs. I don’t quite understand why 2-rows are preferable though. I guess I’m a little slow.

[Rei]

I’m sorry I missed that. I honestly don’t know how I overlooked that thread.

The cat5 route is interesting, but the connectors themselves do not facilitate mounted project boxes in the same way the large D-sub does. Take a look at Toodles’ Bone Daddy T5 mod and you can see a large project box securely mounted to the stick by nothing else but the D-sub itself. Then understand that what most of us want out of this business is the ability to swap system support in an instant, and it becomes clear that D-sub has the advantage.

If you mount project boxes by hanging them and putting stress on the soldering, you either have very excellent skill with the soldering iron, or aren’t interested in doing things the Right Way.

It is clear that you are not interested in a ‘standard’ way of doing things, rather, you are interested in other people doing things the way you do it. You might as well have made your first post with, “This is the SRK standard for arcade sticks.”

That is all well and good, because in my opinion, someone should do that, but your standard falls short when it comes to interfacing with anything other than consoles. But, then again, so what?

Anyone on SRK that is trying to interface with a JAMMA cabinet, NeoGeo boards, Superguns, etc will have already moved on to the arcadecontrols.com message boards and found better ways of dealing with these issues.

[System_1]

Heh, I admit I’m guilty of lurking there an awful lot lately. And yeah, it is a nice change of perspective.

[System_1]

If you mount project boxes by hanging them and putting stress on the soldering, you either have very excellent skill with the soldering iron, or aren’t interested in doing things the Right Way.

Well Toodles stopped hosting the lil vid he posted of him shaking his stick with a box attached to it. The box did not budge.

There is no stress on the soldering at all. These d-subs are mounted into the case with screws and nuts.
These examples are meant to be linked with cable, not mounted, but it should at least illustrate that there is no stress on the solder. The pins would be the last thing to bend, if anything.

Also, most of us are using 3\4" wood, so those that wish to mount the boxes have some thickness to play around with and make a supportive inset. I know I plan to.

You might as well have made your first post with, “This is the SRK standard for arcade sticks.”

I’ve got a half dozen or more projects lined up for use with this concept, and I’m actually waiting on a concensus here. If all I cared about were my own ideas, I would have started my work already and not even bothered with this discussion.

your standard falls short when it comes to interfacing with anything other than consoles.

I’ll tell you what I think is true, and please correct where I’m wrong.

• I can connect to PC via an I-Pac in a project box.

• The Neo Geo pinout had been adopted as a kind of supergun standard.

Now, since I’m not pushing the pinout I initially listed, but rather looking for ideas, I can see the NG pinout covering all our bases if the above is correct. Of course, if the above is correct, any pinout could do the same for Neo and superguns if it was re-routed with a simple adaptor; which is actually one of my projects lying in wait.

So I’m examining both sides here. We could go Neo Geo and reap instant compatibilty with what has already been done with it; or we could choose a different pinout that suits our collective needs better (maybe larger) and still get those Neo perks with a coupla bucks worth of parts to make an adaptor.

arcadecontrols.com… found better ways of dealing with these issues.

I’ve got to get to some woodwork so I won’t have time to read there until later. Care to bounce a few alternatives off us in the meantime?

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Somebody brought up whether the male or female end should go on the stick. I vote for the female because I have the idea that the male pins stand a greater chance of being knocked and bent if mounted the the heavier, more frequently traveling stick.

Of course, if you mount in an inset, it doesn’t matter.

[System_1]

blah blah blah It is clear that you are not interested in a ‘standard’ way of doing things, rather, you are interested in other people doing things the way you do it blah blah

Think you need to spend some more time in finishing school

[Rei]

Think you need to spend some more time in finishing school

Is a sentence fragment.

[Rei]

I’ve got to get to some woodwork so I won’t have time to read there until later. Care to bounce a few alternatives off us in the meantime?

http://www.beersmith.com/mame/wiring.htm

Obviously, he is going into i-pac, but that can just as well go into j-pac (for jamma) or any other console pcb.

Most of the ones that I have seen around are 2-wire (single player), and not 5-wire (two player). They move start/select from cable 3 to cable 1, but if you notice, on cable 1, it has duplicates of button 1, 2, and 7 so that he can do some voodoo for the neo-geo thumb button.

There are better ways to do it than the way he has done. I won’t go into it here because, like I said, you seem to not be interested in building a modular, expandable standard, but rather a standard that only accounts for six button capcom games that you prefer.

Edit:

• The Neo Geo pinout had been adopted as a kind of supergun standard.

Now, since I’m not pushing the pinout I initially listed, but rather looking for ideas, I can see the NG pinout covering all our bases if the above is correct.

Supergun
1 	Common (GND)
2 	NC
3 	Coin
4 	D Button
5 	B Button
6 	Right
7 	Down
8 	+5v
9 	Second D Button
10 	Second C Button
11 	Start
12 	C Button
13 	A Button
14 	Left
15 	Up

NeoGeo
1	Common (GND)
2	NC 
3	Select 	 
4	D Button
5	B Button
6	Right
7	Down
8	+5v 
9	D Button
10	NC
11	Start
12	C Button
13	A Button
14	Left
15	Up

[System_1]

Here’s the pinout I use, copied an pasted from a text file on my desktop.

VGA joystick pinout:

1 GND ----- black
2 a ----- sol or
3 b ----- sol gr
4 c ----- sol blu - 6
5 x ----- str or
6 y ----- str gr
7 z ----- str blu - 5
8
9 NOT CONNECTED
10 up ----- sol blu
11 right----- sol or
12 down----- str blu
13 left----- str or
14 start----- sol brown - 7
15 5V ----- red

sol = solid
str = stripped
5-6-7 are the numbered buttons on a certain USB pad that I hack.

I like the VGA connector better, but pin 9 is really not connected, you can’t use it at all with the extension cables I have. The only reason I went with VGA db15 is because I have 2 connectors side by side. They’re both the same, so it doesn’t matter which I use. And yes, I do use them both sometimes.

I’d say 2 row db15 should be standard, with a pinout closer to mine as opposed to the random looking supergun pinout.

Realistically, the cost of making this for someone else is prohibitive. I like the idea, that’s why I did it for myself.
The only way I’ll do it for someone else is if they understand it’ll practically double the cost of the entire stick.

[System_1]

with a pinout closer to mine as opposed to the random looking supergun pinout.

Heh, I think we could all say the same though. Apparently we all each have our own set-up.

I may as well toss mine into the mix, though I will admit I’m flexible and open to ideas at this point.

1 - Up
2- Down
3 - Right
4 - Left
5 - Ground
6 - Select (extra on pads without this)
7 - Start
8 - button 1
9 - button 2
10 - button 3
11 - button 4
12 - button 5
13 - button 6
14 - button 7 (or power source or extra)
15 - button 8 (or additional ground for power source or extra)

I still don’t know why I decided on this layout way back when. Do any of us have any concrete reasons for our own, conceived layouts?

[System_1]

you seem to… be interested in building… a standard that only accounts for six button capcom games that you prefer.

Well yeah, which is why I broached this thread on SRK, for SRK, and not a more general forum. Six buttons will handle every fighting game out there.

Now, connector format aside, where does our idea dismiss use in any of the applications that you have hinted at? And in the MAME world, when are you ever going to need more than six buttons? Is it just a hotrod autoconfig concern?

The CAT5 hookup is hot, though. Thank you for the link. I already know of a place where I will use it in place of a d-sub. It won’t be for mounting a project box though.

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it’ll practically double the cost of the entire stick.

I don’t understand this.

Well, I guess I do assuming you are including a wired up encoder inna box with the unit. If it was just the stick by itself, no PCB inside but wired up on a d-sub, then there’s no way that could double the cost.

Are you assuming a nice mounting for the project box or something?

[System_1]

The cost of a stick, at least 2 encoders(people likely to choose this want multiple systems), and the db15 cable. Then there’s the extra labor involved.

On top of all that, I built my personal stick with optical buttons, so even more parts and labor.

edit: To put a barrier strip inside a project box wouldn’t be a bad idea, since then you wouldn’t need a standard. Just open up the project box and rewire everything with the help of a small screwdriver. That way, it’s a stealth install, and you’re still compatible with Supergun and neogeo and SRK standard and…

[N-Ken]

I won’t go into it here because, like I said, you seem to not be interested in building a modular, expandable standard, but rather a standard that only accounts for six button capcom games that you prefer.

Notice you’re the only one talking about NON Capcom games? Thats because that is whats played here, fighting games. If we were discussing dance games we’d be on a DDR/bemani/ w/e site. If we were discussing how to play authentic Tempest we’d be on AC. But we’re on Shoryuken, a fighting game website. 6 buttons covers EVERYTHING that this site is for, you’re wasting peoples time by saying something is flawed when it covers everything needed for its purpose.

I, as a stick buyer, would love to see more people sell with DB15s and to have a standard for it, so that I could buy encoders or what have you later on with ease.

[System_1]

The cost of a stick, at least 2 encoders(people likely to choose this want multiple systems), and the db15 cable. Then there’s the extra labor involved.

Ok, for a complete package I can understand.

But for just one stick wired for the encoders, but not including the encoders (hence the push for a standard) and not including space buttons that you make yourself, McGuyver, the cost should be less if anything.

[System_1]

It would indeed cost less.

That would only happen if someone already had a custom universal stick, had encoders, but wanted a second/spare stick.

[System_1]

Which is why we’re talking about this!

SPACE BUTTONS!

[System_1]

You’re just jealous, admit it.

[Rei]

Notice you’re the only one talking about NON Capcom games? Thats because that is whats played here, fighting games. If we were discussing dance games we’d be on a DDR/bemani/ w/e site. If we were discussing how to play authentic Tempest we’d be on AC. But we’re on Shoryuken, a fighting game website. 6 buttons covers EVERYTHING that this site is for, you’re wasting peoples time by saying something is flawed when it covers everything needed for its purpose.

I, as a stick buyer, would love to see more people sell with DB15s and to have a standard for it, so that I could buy encoders or what have you later on with ease.

So, DB15 with supergun/neogeo pin-out it is.

[lseelba]

DB15 cables and connectors are getting harder and harder to find. I have it set up on one of my sticks, using 8 buttons and no 5V. But if you are going to drop two buttons and add a 5V…why not just use a VGA cable (VGA cables are not technically DB15 cables). Yeah they only have 14 pins, but they are ubiquitous and connectors are easy to find. You’d have to drop one of your grounds, but it was superfluous anyway. DB15 is a thing of the past as far as standards go.